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Thread: Peter Joseph TZM Podcast for Feb 18th 2015 - Q & A

  1. #21
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    Finally I have a question to ask. After what seems to have been a much heated discussion over veganism on TZM's facebook page, i participated by suggesting that when you have systems allowing for multiple possibilities, all made manifest by natural forces and historically known to have occurred before, it is unreasonable to expect a population to choose one possibility to the exclusion of all others based solely on ethical principles and that each person would choose what is most beneficial, if access is available, based on survival pressures, curiosity pressures, avoidance of pain, seeking of pleasure, and external changes at the moment they are presented with the choices. I stated that I agreed with TZM not making Veganism a topical priority based on this. I also stated that the solutions would be in the foundational design of any emerging system as a whole and that the environmental design would allow for healthier options to be more accessible and greater in number and destructive options to be fewer in number.

    Essentially the discussion quickly degraded into Vegan vs Non vegan. I think some individual efforts were made to present scientific evidence but i stated that telling an individual they are psychopathic animal and environmental killers "one actual quote" for eating animal based life probably will not sway a person to do anything other than retaliate in kind. How was the reasoning in my general response? I ask because I have recognized you as one who is able to discuss with a cool head.

    I have an interest in philosophy and know its workings to some degree but I spend a good bit of time trying to master computer science. What i have endeavored to do is determine all the possibilities available based on all known evidence within my peripheral and make my cases based on that. Often times they argue against my position but ignore the evidence and provide no evidence of their own. Do you come across this alot, and how do you handle it?

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    Is it not possible that the powers that be, in the interest of self-preservation, use their influence to mobilize our moving toward a hyper artificial economy? One that mandates sustainable systems --- like biodegradable, clean energy produced goods and services that can be recycled back into the system as needed and the deliberate implementation of redundant modes of employment to keep cyclical consumption in check, the arbitrarily illegalization of technologies that permit too much freedom: decentralized production (under the guise of aiding terrorism) etc, decentralized currency, etc, etc - ultimately meaning a natural law, resource-based economic model isn't so urgently necessary? Perhaps centuries or even millennia away? With respect to the train of thought put forth by sustainable systems advocates, does it not seem we're more likely to get this kinda society at least before a real emergent civilization manages to ascend this ignorance?
    Last edited by AlbanyNY2015; 02-25-2015 at 04:04 PM.

  3. #23
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    Is it not possible that the powers that be, in the interest of self-preservation, use their influence to mobilize our moving toward a hyper artificial economy? One that mandates sustainable systems --- like biodegradable, clean energy produced goods and services that can be recycled back into the system as needed and the deliberate implementation of redundant modes of employment to keep cyclical consumption in check, the arbitrarily illegalization of technologies that permit too much freedom: decentralized production (under the guise of aiding terrorism) etc, decentralized currency, etc, etc - ultimately meaning a natural law, resource-based economic model isn't so urgently necessary? Perhaps centuries or even millennia away? With respect to the train of thought put forth by sustainable systems advocates, does it not seem we're more likely to get this kinda society at least before a real emergent civilization manages to ascend this ignorance?
    Last edited by AlbanyNY2015; 02-25-2015 at 04:04 PM.

  4. #24
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    Since TZM advocates the best of science applied to society, presumably this would reference the scientific consensus position for as many areas as possible as are relevant to the issues TZM discusses, yes? However, it seems TZM is selective about which consensuses it embraces. For example, it acknowledges climate change, but doesn’t seem to embrace the vast consensuses on the safety and usefulness of both GMOs and nuclear energy. Why is this so? And what metric is being used to determine which consensuses TZM adheres to? I hope it’s not just decided based on which subjects are palatable to its membership.

  5. #25
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    There is a learning gap about what science is and how science is used by established members of the scientific community and the slowly growing cross section in the population taking interest in the movement. Most of this population may only have surface understandings of science and tech. The first is learning how to examine the evidence, take the appropriate amount of time to question the evidence, make attempts to disprove the evidence, and then make decisions based on that having arrived at will probably be the same conclusions or a different viable model explaining the evidence.

    This is different from a scientific expert stating something and simply saying take my word for it because I am expert. Trust still has to be developed between an expert and non experts before most will simply take their word for it. A healthy amount of skepticism has to remain as a way of minimizing exploitation of that trust built. What our current system does not do is allow unrestricted access to experiments and data collected by a patent system. This keeps the public en masse from being up to date seeing only the commercial results and delayed technological and scientific results until patents are up.

    When results are published they will be in pricey scientific journals that will keep access to information in the hands of who can afford it and out of the hands who can not. This severely slows the dissemination of information and thus slows the trust building in the scientific method.

  6. #26
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    Dear Peter,

    Could you elaborate a little on the Localized Solutions Project? This is a project which wasn't very clear in TZM Defined. We're planning on starting it here in Greece. Our plan is to essentialy create a guide in wiki format on how people can gain self-sufficiency, as far as basic needs are concerned and how they can cut down their household expenses using technology (eg. hydroponics, open-source softare etc). Is that close to how you envisioned it?

    Best,
    Christos from TZM Greece
    Last edited by Christos Pap.; 02-17-2015 at 10:02 AM.
    "If you desperately try to promote something, even if it's scientifically legitimate, you will probably sound like a salesman." - Tio, 'Harmful Thinking', TVP Magazine (Issue 8)

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    Any news regarding the Global Redesign Institute? Is there anything the TZM community can do to speed up this project?
    Last edited by CitizenOfEarth; 02-17-2015 at 07:04 PM.

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    Is it not possible that the powers that be, in the interest of self-preservation, use their influence to mobilize our moving toward a hyper artificial economy? One that mandates sustainable systems --- like biodegradable, clean energy produced goods and services that can be recycled back into the system as needed and the deliberate implementation of redundant modes of employment to keep cyclical consumption in check, the arbitrarily illegalization of technologies that permit too much freedom: decentralized production (under the guise of aiding terrorism) etc, decentralized currency, etc, etc - ultimately meaning a natural law, resource-based economic model isn't so urgently necessary? Perhaps centuries or even millennia away? With respect to the train of thought put forth by sustainable systems advocates, does it not seem we're more likely to get this kinda society at least before a real emergent civilization manages to ascend this ignorance?
    Last edited by AlbanyNY2015; 02-25-2015 at 02:38 PM. Reason: jus cuz

  9. #29
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    Hi Peter, my questions to you are in relation to the topic of veganism and animal rights.

    As you are likely aware, there has been some polarising discussions on this subject recently within the movement, and it’s been suggested by some that this is not an issue that should be given any significant attention within TZM, due to the potential and likelihood of alienating others, and thus perhaps being counter-productive towards creating critical mass.

    Whilst I can appreciate this perspective, I do not think there is much to the strategic argument that this avoidance of veganism will help TZM with its goals.

    My 2 questions are:

    1) Wouldn’t the necessary value shift required for an RBE world, suggest embracing the veganism ideal as a pre-requisite?

    and,

    2) Is it an intelligent position for tzm to treat veganism as a peripheral issue when it is one of the most important changes that an individual can make, to reduce their environmental footprint and foster compassion and empathy for animals, and other humans?


    Thank-you for your time

  10. #30
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    I currently have two lives Peter, one is my marketing job which I know is complete bs that does little for society and takes up the majority of my time. And the other is a value system inherent with logic and reason mainly due to TZM and I thank you. My question: It’s a selfish one, however I’d like to get your thoughts on it. I’m at the stage in my life where “normal” people get into relationships and start looking at future goals with respect to buying houses, families, getting married, working 6 days a week and losing their mid 20 for said goals. What’s your opinion on this “hard working” mentality young adults go through for these goals (without going into student debt) and 2. How does one maintain a relationship or even entertain the idea of having one with someone that doesn't have these values. It feels like 99.99% of the women on this planet are so conditioned with fashion advertising and sex and the city culture I wouldn't want to spend my life with any of them.
    Last edited by vidic; 02-18-2015 at 05:17 AM.
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