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Thread: Max Keiser & Startcoin as the currency of the Zeitgeist Movement

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    Many people in the tzm and elsewhere associate money with negativity... I agree that currency can be used for good things.
    I initially really liked the idea of bitcoin, and bought some. but i have a few problems with it:

    1. you can mostly use it online, you can't buy milk or bread with it.
    2. It seems it has been hijacked by speculators - people who are in it just to make a buck.
    3. Most of the bitcoin evangelists are anarcho-capitalists, who see the bitcoin system as a way to avoid taxes and regulation.
    4. Bitcoin advocates allways say its open-source. open-source doesn't mean anything unless you can read the code, which 99% of the population can't do.
    5. the system is too complex for the average person, hopefully it will improve over time.
    6. in order to buy and sell bitcoins you need to connect your bitcoin wallet to a valid bank account, which loses the purpose of a decentralize currency in the first place, no? if banks have control over buying and selling bitcoins isn't it a problem?
    To my mind, and with all due respect, your post illustrates an eroneous thought process that is far too prevalent within The Zeitgeist Movement. It is not enough to discount an idea and then cover yourself with a get-out clause in case your are proven wrong. It is not enough to seemingly propose a Utopia, and when challenged about any impracticalities put forward, to then say, "well I told you all along, it is not possible because man is imperfect". You did that with your opening sentence. You implied that most people associate negative things with currency. Your intention seemed to be to destroy an idea that attempts to solve the ills associated with the Central Banking System. You then covered yourself by admitting the possibility that good things can be achieved by using currency.

    As ZCM philosopher Bainbridge has pointed out, there is a duality in human nature that is akin to Quantum Theory. Mankind is both perfect and imperfect. What it actually is depends upon your point of view and the instant viewed. There is both order and randomicity in the Universe. So too with the development of an embryo. It is the eventual outcome that counts.

    Not wishing to be unkind to you, I find that all the points you raise to be either inaccurate, or ill-informed ... if not spurious. Here is why, point-by-point:-

    1. ... "you can't buy milk or bread with it." 'Can't' is an absolute term. I can buy milk using Bitcoin in my Country. I'll sell you some milk and post it to you if you send me some Bitcoin, or an altcoin that I will accept. There are vending machines in existence where you can buy a pint of milk, or other items using Bitcoin. There is an ever-growing list of organisations, from small independently run businesses to large multi-national corporations that accept Bitcoin. At random, off the internet, here is a list of some: Who Accepts Bitcoins As Payment? List of Companies - the list is incomplete. There are many more not on that list e.g. Virgin to name one.
    2. Unfortunately, speculation connected with commodities is a fact of life and not just limited to Bitcoin. Get used to it. "You want it? I got it." The oldest profession in the world is based upon it. Life relies on transactions of one kind, or another. Energy. Transactions tend to occur when there is the required degree motivation. Hunger. Valency.
    3. Again: "Most of the bitcoin evangelists are anarcho-capitalists, who see the bitcoin system as a way to avoid taxes and regulation." What are your terms of reference to assert this specifically to and about Bitcoin? Have you done a survey? Or is this just an opinion? Again you apply a generality to something specific, without qualifying why that is specific to Bitcoin - there are lots of people who would like to avoid paying too much tax. Lots too who do not like to be tied down by too much regulation. And by the way, contrary to common perception, all transactions with Bitcoin are traceable and are recorded on the Blockchain for all to see - including the Inland Revenue, the IRS, or whatever tax system applies in your Country.
    4. Again!!! "Bitcoin advocates allways say its open-source. open-source doesn't mean anything unless you can read the code, which 99% of the population can't do." Open source means that it can be checked and verified. The open disclosure on the labelling of a lettuce can say that it is pesticide free. Many people couldn't check whether that is true, or not. But there are some that could! And that tends to prevent liberty taking. The same applies to open source. There are people who can check the code to make sure that nothing nefarious is taking place within the code - and even make suggestions to improve it for all, not a chosen few.
    5.Again!!!!! "the system is too complex for the average person, hopefully it will improve over time." The same thing was said about the Internet. For those who use Bitcoin, or the altcoins, you wouldn't believe how ridiculously easy they are to use.
    6. Again!!!!!! (I'm tearing my hair out here). "in order to buy and sell bitcoins you need to connect your bitcoin wallet to a valid bank account" - another absolute statement totally incorrect. Bitcoin and altcoin wallets are not connected to your bank account. Is using a bank account to buy things with an issue? Do you use a bank account? Buying on eBay, or Amazon normally requires you to have a bank account, although I do understand that PayPal also accepts Bitcoin. You can even buy Bitcoin and the altcoins on eBay. Bitcoins can also be acquired by simply being given them, or donated - and that does occur within the Bitcoin and altcoin communities. You can buy Bitcoins with other altcoins such a Startcoin and Zeitcoin. There are lots of people in the world who do not have access to bank accounts. Cryptocurrencies provide them with a solution.

    Cryptocurrencies are now becoming such a threat to the centralised banking systems that they are now proposing their own closed source versions that they can control. The Bank of England is one. The Bank of Greece is another. It is not the tools that are at fault. It is the people who use those tools that matter. Either for good, or for ill.

    For far too long, far too many people in TZM seem to be putting forward, or implying that TZM is the "do nothing option." I have to ask: Why?
    Last edited by a_cat_named_joe; 03-02-2015 at 02:35 PM.

  2. #12
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    Thanks for all the contributions to this thread, they have all been relevant and clear.

    My suggestions is just to experiment and find what works for you when it comes to crypto-currency. There has been a very good list of options and how to explore them in a previous post.

    This thread has given me some encouragement that there might be demand from within TZM for a film piece with Max about ephemeralization. He has some interesting thoughts on this subject and how it pertains to TZM. I will list the concept on startjoin.com soon

  3. #13
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    What HAL9000 is attempting to convey, is that he does not have a viable means of either earning Bitcoins or Altcoins or a strong local market support for it's use. While it may be true your country allows for its use in brick and mortar institutions, I can almost certainly state that the U.S. does not. I have heard of a few (brink and mortar) businesses that accept those forms of payment, but they are extremely few in number.

    As per online sales and money transfers over great distance, they work great. However access to these networks still require some link to a bank. Which means the relevant value of the crypto-currencies will still be tied to their (labor for income paychecks). If a value assessment comparison of a particular product is made, let's say the cost of milk in a local store and the cost of milk in an online store, if the value of the milk is such that you can buy more units and cost less to transport it based on the exchange rate of the (crypto-currency to the paper currency rate) vs the local store pickup then it will be more palatable for the average consumer to support.

    This is where the burden of proof is on the crypto-currency networks to show that such a system can be trusted and makes life cheaper.
    HAL9000 likes this.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin A D View Post

    ... As per online sales and money transfers over great distance, they work great. However access to these networks still require some link to a bank. Which means the relevant value of the crypto-currencies will still be tied to their (labor for income paychecks).
    I'm sorry, but you too are misinformed.

    You do not need a bank account, or access to the banking system to send Bitcoins from one side of the earth to another. All you need is a Bitcoin wallet on a computer, or mobile device, a connection to the Internet and a Bitcoin wallet address to send to. You input the amount that you wish to send and click on the send button. Shortly after the amount sent appears in the recipient wallet. It is that simple. It cuts the entire banking system, Western Union et al, completely out of the equation and costs virtually nothing to send. The same applies to the altcoins.

    If the potential of that capability and other capabilities spoken of does not appeal to you, then fair enough - I am wasting my time. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by a_cat_named_joe View Post
    To my mind, and with all due respect, your post illustrates an eroneous thought process that is far too prevalent within The Zeitgeist Movement. It is not enough to discount an idea and then cover yourself with a get-out clause in case your are proven wrong. It is not enough to seemingly propose a Utopia, and when challenged about any impracticalities put forward, to then say, "well I told you all along, it is not possible because man is imperfect". You did that with your opening sentence. You implied that most people associate negative things with currency. Your intention seemed to be to destroy an idea that attempts to solve the ills associated with the Central Banking System. You then covered yourself by admitting the possibility that good things can be achieved by using currency.

    As ZCM philosopher Bainbridge has pointed out, there is a duality in human nature that is akin to Quantum Theory. Mankind is both perfect and imperfect. What it actually is depends upon your point of view and the instant viewed. There is both order and randomicity in the Universe. So too with the development of an embryo. It is the eventual outcome that counts.

    Not wishing to be unkind to you, I find that all the points you raise to be either inaccurate, or ill-informed ... if not spurious. Here is why, point-by-point:-

    1. ... "you can't buy milk or bread with it." 'Can't' is an absolute term. I can buy milk using Bitcoin in my Country. I'll sell you some milk and post it to you if you send me some Bitcoin, or an altcoin that I will accept. There are vending machines in existence where you can buy a pint of milk, or other items using Bitcoin. There is an ever-growing list of organisations, from small independently run businesses to large multi-national corporations that accept Bitcoin. At random, off the internet, here is a list of some: Who Accepts Bitcoins As Payment? List of Companies - the list is incomplete. There are many more not on that list e.g. Virgin to name one.
    2. Unfortunately, speculation connected with commodities is a fact of life and not just limited to Bitcoin. Get used to it. "You want it? I got it." The oldest profession in the world is based upon it. Life relies on transactions of one kind, or another. Energy. Transactions tend to occur when there is the required degree motivation. Hunger. Valency.
    3. Again: "Most of the bitcoin evangelists are anarcho-capitalists, who see the bitcoin system as a way to avoid taxes and regulation." What are your terms of reference to assert this specifically to and about Bitcoin? Have you done a survey? Or is this just an opinion? Again you apply a generality to something specific, without qualifying why that is specific to Bitcoin - there are lots of people who would like to avoid paying too much tax. Lots too who do not like to be tied down by too much regulation. And by the way, contrary to common perception, all transactions with Bitcoin are traceable and are recorded on the Blockchain for all to see - including the Inland Revenue, the IRS, or whatever tax system applies in your Country.
    4. Again!!! "Bitcoin advocates allways say its open-source. open-source doesn't mean anything unless you can read the code, which 99% of the population can't do." Open source means that it can be checked and verified. The open disclosure on the labelling of a lettuce can say that it is pesticide free. Many people couldn't check whether that is true, or not. But there are some that could! And that tends to prevent liberty taking. The same applies to open source. There are people who can check the code to make sure that nothing nefarious is taking place within the code - and even make suggestions to improve it for all, not a chosen few.
    5.Again!!!!! "the system is too complex for the average person, hopefully it will improve over time." The same thing was said about the Internet. For those who use Bitcoin, or the altcoins, you wouldn't believe how ridiculously easy they are to use.
    6. Again!!!!!! (I'm tearing my hair out here). "in order to buy and sell bitcoins you need to connect your bitcoin wallet to a valid bank account" - another absolute statement totally incorrect. Bitcoin and altcoin wallets are not connected to your bank account. Is using a bank account to buy things with an issue? Do you use a bank account? Buying on eBay, or Amazon normally requires you to have a bank account, although I do understand that PayPal also accepts Bitcoin. You can even buy Bitcoin and the altcoins on eBay. Bitcoins can also be acquired by simply being given them, or donated - and that does occur within the Bitcoin and altcoin communities. You can buy Bitcoins with other altcoins such a Startcoin and Zeitcoin. There are lots of people in the world who do not have access to bank accounts. Cryptocurrencies provide them with a solution.

    Cryptocurrencies are now becoming such a threat to the centralised banking systems that they are now proposing their own closed source versions that they can control. The Bank of England is one. The Bank of Greece is another. It is not the tools that are at fault. It is the people who use those tools that matter. Either for good, or for ill.

    For far too long, far too many people in TZM seem to be putting forward, or implying that TZM is the "do nothing option." I have to ask: Why?
    You seem a little tense bro, relax.. bitcoin value is gonna rise soon to 2000$ and your'e gonna be rich.

    Now seriously.
    you associate me with the tzm on what basis? i'm writing in this forum the same way you write in it, so if i'm automatically a zeitgester - so are you.

    I've had bitcoins since 3 years ago and liked the technology. all i did here was pointing to some flaws in it, in the same way that every system has flaws. Or is bitcoin perfect?
    I will try to answer shortly, point by point, and i hope you will be less hostile this time:

    1. I have tried to use bitcoin in brick and mortar places and couldn't do it in the area i live. not only that, i have tried to convince store owners to accept it while explainig the benefits, and offered to install a wallet for them. i'm fairly tech savvy myelf but the people told me its to complicated for them to understand. others refuse for other reasons(the main reason was that it was just not relevant for their life.). so to the point - I CANT BUY WHAT I ACTUALLY NEED IN BITCOINS. I CANT PAY RENT OR GET SALARY WITH IT. THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO ME AND TO THE AVERAGE PERSON.

    2. I never said i was surprised by the degree of speculation and trading in bitcoin, i'm just disgused by it.

    3. It is my opinion that bitcoin attracts anarcho-capitalist. i never did a research or a theseis on the subject.

    4. Here i agree with you somewhat, you have a good point. But the problem is that in this case we still have to trust a small minority to make sure everything will be ok with our money, and nobody will abuse it(sounds familiar?). it is still a minority of people who understands the mechanisms, just a different minority(by the way, i can understand the code, but i also understand that most of my friends and family can't).

    5. So you are repeating what i've said. We need to wait for the system to be more simple for the average user. btw, bitcoin is easy to use for me and you, try to tell it to my dad or any other elderly person.

    6. Of course you don't HAVE to connect your bitcoin wallet to a bank account. But how else your'e gonna convert between dollars and bitcoins?

    Lets say JOHN SMITH opens a bitcoin wallet. After he tell all his friends about the wonderfull tech, and that he can now send and receive money all over the world, He still have.............A WALLET.

    john is working at home depot and get paid with dollars like almost all other americans.He also pay his bills and buy his groceries with dollars. He doesn't have a website that accepts bitcoins, nor does he ask for donations. he is a simple man who get paid for his job, pay bills and mortgage and support his family. So again: HOW DOES HE GET BITCOINS IF NOT BY CONNECTING TO A BANK AND CONVERTING HIS DOLLARS TO BITCOINS?

    and maybe a more important question:
    How is bitcoin relevant to him and his family? did you ever asked yourself this question?

    So to wrap up: i've used bitcoin, didn't find it amazing or groundbreking at this point. If others want to try it - good for them. it is just one click away.

    As for tzm: resource based economy is a moneyless system so cryptocurrency is not even relevant to it. It could be used for the transition period though, if it is useful.

  6. #16
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    How does one initially acquire said bitcoins? I personally have a bitcoin wallet and I utilize it as such. What I do not have is a way to earn bitcoins or a way to use them to pay my living expenses.

    In order to acquire your bitcoins, you either have to mine them with rigs, conduct exchanges of capital(services or resources), or buy them with currency. The rig option is now inaccessible to the average person. The capital exchange option is the one that needs greater accessibility and development in order to fully bypass the banking system. This leaves currency purchase as the simpler and easier method of acquisition, until such time as utility businesses accept such as a form of payment.

    The last exchange rate was around 276.32 US Dollar per bitcoin the last time I checked. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...+exchange+rate
    If the purchase of said Bitcoin allows me to buy more than $276.32 worth of goods and logistics, then the Bitcoin has greater use as an exchange medium. If the purchase of said Bitcoin only allows me to buy less than $276.32 worth in goods and logistics, then it has less use as a medium of exchange. It's potential is irrelevant if its kinetic is limited.
    HAL9000 likes this.

  7. #17
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    One way i got BTC was to make media clips and get paid in BTC. It was all done through Max Keiser's Original Crowdfunding website pirateMyFilm.com
    You can see My bitcoin documentary from 2012 and other stuff i have done on My youtube.com/eddiezmars
    I also invested 200 when btc was still worth 3 each, and when they soared to 800 each i had 50k worth of btc. A great example of crypto
    capitalizing non violent peace and sustainability activist.
    Sadly all my remaining btc were stolen at the beginning of last year which brings me to my main issue with currency overall crypto or otherwise
    If its being used in a culture which has awful inequality and scarcity, it doesn't matter how sound the protocol of the currency, it will not be a vehicle for public health
    it will remain a vehicle for totalitarian division and control
    HAL9000 and NeoRBE like this.

  8. #18
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    so someone stole your money? doesn't make bitcoin sound safe(r)!
    agree 100% with your last sentence and btw only in a culture of scarcity is any currency used or needed!!! in a culture of abundance like RBE would be, any kind of currency is simply not needed at all, no matter if it is decentralized or not

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoRBE View Post
    only in a culture of scarcity is any currency used or needed!!! in a culture of abundance like RBE would be, any kind of currency is simply not needed at all, no matter if it is decentralized or not
    Agreed, not needed. But could still be used for games and maybe exchange of unique objects or services like art or blowjobs, and then it'd be a status thing like, whoever gives the best blowjobs, or paintings, or music has a huge balance of crypto-currency. Resource access would not be dependent on currency, everyone would be provided for, having a big stash of currency would be just like puffing out your chest, for sexual selection or whatnot. Who knows. I kind of hope not, but I could imagine it going that way. Humankind are stranger than fiction
    AnnaMaria likes this.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pac3mak3r View Post
    Agreed, not needed. But could still be used for games and maybe exchange of unique objects or services like art or blowjobs, and then it'd be a status thing like, whoever gives the best blowjobs, or paintings, or music has a huge balance of crypto-currency. Resource access would not be dependent on currency, everyone would be provided for, having a big stash of currency would be just like puffing out your chest, for sexual selection or whatnot. Who knows. I kind of hope not, but I could imagine it going that way. Humankind are stranger than fiction
    yeah. I hope not. lol!

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