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Thread: Lee Camp - on the Deep State coup and media "cheering" it on

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Answer to what? Do you think greed is a root cause of something or do you think it's a symptom of something? I think it's a symptom of something. How do you propose we deal with greed?


    That's an interesting question: what are we doing now? Given this Wikileaks Vault 7 stuff that has recently come out, perhaps now is a good time to reflect on that question, and ask instead whether we could refocus some of the resources that were being used for it towards finding technical solutions for society's problems.



    Nah....go back and READ some of the other 'ignored' postings on this subject and many related subjects.....I'm tired of 'repeating myself' with you Neil . Its been a huge waste of time bantering with you IMO...

    Based on past 'lack of responses' and the few answers provided....You're really not that interested in my opinion anyway, are you?

    You're always looking for a fight and refuse to spend any time bothering to understand anyone else's perspectives but your own...

    Sorry, Man....You're getting the HAND from me right now....and for as long as it takes for .........Well, we'll just see, heh?
    Last edited by droneBEE; 1 Week Ago at 04:45 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Nah....go back and READ some of the other 'ignored' postings on this subject and many related subjects.....I'm tired of 'repeating myself' with you Neil . Its been a huge waste of time bantering with you IMO...
    Okey dokey, we could go over one at a time. What's the first one you'd like for me to look at? You can post a link to it or describe the location of the thread & post #.

    If you want to post a link to it but don't know how, just let me know and I'll try to provide some instructions. I know it may seem impossible to learn, but once you try it and practice it a couple times, I think you'll find that it's nowhere near as difficult as you might think. I sometimes write up instructions for a living & they've ranged from a handful of steps sent in an email reply to manuals for programs I've written to distribute to users. All you have to do is try to follow each step. Professor Neil is more than happy to show you how to conquer the interwebz.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Based on past 'lack of responses' and the few answers provided....You're really not that interested in my opinion anyway, are you?
    Just curious - have you ever seen what JF says about opinions?


    Anyways, it depends on what you mean by opinions & I would think that if I didn't care about what you or anyone else had to say on this forum, I wouldn't bother responding. If you ever asked me something and I never got around to responding, just let me know about it to remind me and I'll try to do what I can to respond - not that I won't try to put the effort into it when possible, I just don't want to commit myself to a promise (I'm like that in general to avoid living a stressful life).

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    You're always looking for a fight
    I've already gone over this, here: Capitalising Happiness

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    and refuse to spend any time bothering to understand anyone else's perspectives but your own...
    I don't think so; I remember a while back I had attempted to demand that you provide a specific explanation for something just to clarify things for me, out of frustration that you were unwilling to do so for prior requests & even then instead of doing that for me you threw a rather dismissive rejection for my request, as your response. Here, you're describing what you have been to me, in the past, and I wouldn't be surprised if you continue to be to me in the future.

    Anyways, you probably do have a point; maybe we (you, me, everyone) should all put a little more effort into first defining things (e.g., words such as libertarian, socialism, scarcity, opinion, etc.) before we start making statements about things.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Sorry, Man....You're getting the HAND from me right now....and for as long as it takes for .........Well, we'll just see, heh?
    That's ok; for similar reasons that I don't care that people attack me rather than provide rebuttals to the comments and arguments I make, I have no problem with accepting this, either. I'll just resort to falling back to simply continuing to keep the status quo. For instance, until you can convince me that scarcity is an illusion, I will continue to reject the notion that it is. In fact, I think I recall coming to the conclusion that you and I are using different definitions of the word & I had explained what I meant by scarcity. So there.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    We could/would not have the Military Industrial Complex without Congress. Congressional spending is what Ike warned us about...because Congress controls the money.....

    ....its all in the History Books, my friends.....
    You're preaching to the choir. I just wasn't sure if the added word "congressional" bore some significance I wasn't familiar with, or it was just essentially extraneous, for the purpose of interpreting its meaning. Yes, maybe you could say I can get easily confused. One thing you have to be aware of with computer programmers is that even the most subtle things, such as the presence or absence of a single asterisk character in source code, can completely alter what that program will do or even whether or not it will compile into an executable program.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Neil, I think you watch too much TV
    Yes, it's possible; I do watch TV sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    .....and YES....Scarcity is still an Illusion...an illusion perpetuated by Greedy people....some are even Libertarians....
    I'm still not convinced. Repeating it again and again won't help convince me. Complaining about how you repeat something again and again also won't help convince me. I still see this as nothing more than a claim & if you want to convince me you're simply going to have to move away from simply repeating it again and again, and start providing a proof or at least a convincing explanation for why scarcity is an illusion. Saying that scarcity is an illusion that's perpetuated by greedy people is just a separate claim & it doesn't serve as proof that scarcity is an illusion, on its own.

    I don't have a reason to doubt that some libertarians can be greedy, but it's not the libertarians (greedy or otherwise) that I see as a threat. For example, in a free-market capitalist system (FMCS), if a greedy car dealer wants to charge $50k for a certain car, I can simply go to their competitor who is willing to sell the exact same car for $25k and buy it from them, instead. The greedy car dealer has lost my business, and in an FMCS they cannot force me to buy a car at all. It's the authoritarian who wants to put a gun to my head and force me to buy their car for $50k, that I see as a threat & the win-win solution is to simply oppose authoritarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Abundance is the reality.....and its hidden right in front of YOU....
    Yes, and until we implement automation, robotics, and other advancements in technology that will do the work for us, someone somewhere is going to continue to have to exert the manual labor to gain access to that abundance; they're also going to want to be adequately compensated for their efforts so they can in turn compensate others who have exerted manual labor to gain access to the abundances they have. If we're not adequately compensating each other then we all lose access to that abundance, because it's unpleasant and undesirable to provide the abundances that we gained access to with the manual labor we exerted when others refuse to share the abundances that they gained access to because they're greedy.

  4. #14
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    [2 points here -]

    1. If a car dealer is selling a car for 25k that's only because he is able to without suffering too much loss. There is only a Limit to how low they can set prices. So it wont be a competition on how Low they can bring down prices. All dealers would be forced to set prices at a certain range in order to avoid losing Money. And the Goal is Profit Maximization no matter how ethical we think they are. That's one of the Contradictions/Problems with Capitalism.

    People are conditioned to want/need these products so the Advantage will always go to the Business's. They can offer lower deals than their competitors but only to a point where it still makes business sense. People are not in Business just to get by. They are in competition for your Money to make as much of it as they can by any means necessary. This hypothetical scenario where it's a win-win for both parties doesn't exist when both sides are Always trying to get a better deal for themselves. Someone always comes out ahead and that's usually the Business side.

    2. In a Capitalist System sense, Scarcity is real because it's designed that way for the system to work. But in a Natural System Reality sense of what the Planet can provide then No, it's not real. If anyone would just step back for a moment and calculate the available/potential Resources out there then things become more clearer on what can be produced. And also just to look at the availability of things we have now out there. I mean all the Clothes, Housing, Food, Land, Medicine etc. etc.. that's just sitting there waiting for someone to PAY for it clearly shows the Abundance we already have but are denied access to because of this Market Contrivance we are subjugated to.

    So in conclusion, Scarcity is 'real' because we design & make it that way but in REALITY, the Planet is Design to provide Abundance for All and this can easily be seen if one just takes off their Capitalist Goggles but unfortunately this is a very alien concept for many to do. Conditioning is a b*tch!

  5. #15
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    Perhaps... the answers are just too simple for the tech-minded to embrace so they have been ignored....?

    After nearly 2000 posts, I'm weary of repeating myself.....

    Our problems all have simple solutions...it is Human Beings that bring our own complexities into the equation, therefore preventing the enactment or fruition of the solution right before us...

    Is that what's called a circle jerk?
    Last edited by droneBEE; 1 Week Ago at 05:24 AM.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Our problems all have simple solutions...it is Human Beings that bring our own complexities into the equation, therefore preventing the enactment or fruition of the solution right before us...
    Amen to that Brother!

    The Earth provides all of the solutions for us if we could only learn to recognize this. Our Minds can bring about Amazing results when we do this but like you said it also hinders us when we bring our own separate Unnecessarily Made-Up Complexities into all of this that derails any type of logical discussion and progress towards Real Constructive solutions.

    It's like that saying in spanish...

    "We Suffer Because We Want To"
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    [2 points here -]

    1. If a car dealer is selling a car for 25k that's only because he is able to without suffering too much loss. There is only a Limit to how low they can set prices. So it wont be a competition on how Low they can bring down prices. All dealers would be forced to set prices at a certain range in order to avoid losing Money. And the Goal is Profit Maximization no matter how ethical we think they are. That's one of the Contradictions/Problems with Capitalism.
    I have my own 2 points for this, alone:

    1. Yes, you're right that it could be that in some cases they can offer the car for only $25k because their overhead is very low, or they have to sell it for at least $50k and maybe even then the overhead is so high that they're barely able to squeeze a very small token net profit out of it. You're missing the point, though; my intention was to have as the premise that the overhead for both dealers are no different from each other. It was even meant to be a rather implausible scenario (as part of the message I was trying to convey), given that anyone who knows car dealers know that they want to do anything they can to get their customers to buy a car, and are not going to be stingy about lowering the price at the risk of losing a sale.

    2. Let's take your situation, that the overhead for each dealer is very different, and revisit this notion of greed. It seems like you're the one making the argument that one would have to be incorrectly projecting that the car dealer with the huge overhead is being greedy by demanding $50k. I would agree with you about that; they're not being greedy, they're only trying to make ends meet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    People are conditioned to want/need these products so the Advantage will always go to the Business's.
    In some cases that's true, but it probably happens far less often or at far less extremes than one might imagine. Yes, we do live in the lap of luxury when we have something closer to a free market, but the problem is that when we don't have that, suddenly we can be faced with empty grocery store shelves, long bread lines, etc.

    Look at how tiny the USSR grocery store shopping carts are & ask yourself why:


    How many grocery stores were within a short driving distance compared to here in the US, for same population density in each region, or how many corners had a convenience store? I don't know the answers to these questions; I'm actually curious.

    They don't look like illusions to me, and I can only empathize with those who are actually subjected to it. I'd love to see someone go up to them and tell them that scarcity is an illusion (and no putting guns to their heads to make sure they give the right answer). I don't even want to imagine how horrific it must be getting in Venezuela, right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    They can offer lower deals than their competitors but only to a point where it still makes business sense. People are not in Business just to get by. They are in competition for your Money to make as much of it as they can by any means necessary. This hypothetical scenario where it's a win-win for both parties doesn't exist when both sides are Always trying to get a better deal for themselves. Someone always comes out ahead and that's usually the Business side.
    It is inherently a win-win in the absolute sense when people can get together to freely trade if they want to or not trade if they don't want to, and live in the lap of luxury, than it is for someone to be someone else's repressed slave or go to war to kill each other, destroy the environment, and end up with only crumbs as the spoils of war.

    What you're referring to as a win-win situation that doesn't exist is a more subjective one within the win-win that does exist. Suppose you buy a gallon of milk at one supermarket for $2.50, then find out later on that another supermarket sells it for $2.25; so you lost $0.25 on a gallon of milk. Big deal! Next time you can go to the supermarket that sells it for $2.25, then you win! Don't let the loss of $0.25 for the purchase of a gallon of milk one day make you despise the bigger picture, or there's far more at stake (orders of magnitute bigger) than some pocket change.

    The people who get the better deals more often are the ones who do a little bit of homework. For example when I have to refuel, I look for the best deal available: Virginia Gas Prices - Find Cheap Gas Prices in Virginia

    When I went to buy my most recent car, I went to a website that showed what people paid for different makes/years/models/versions of cars and printed them out for a few of the versions I was interested in. They didn't have the one I was most interested in, and I didn't print it out for the one that was the next approximation of what I wanted that they had available. I don't remember the exact numbers, but let's say the one I got had a suggested manufacturer's retail price of $23,500. Knowing that all I was looking for wat to pay average (which is lower than the price tag), the dealer offered the car for $18,500. Afterwards he looked it up himself on the same website and found out that the average was more like somewhere between $20,500 and $21,500, and he showed me what he found and said he'd stick with his offer. You could speculate on whether he regretted it or knew what it was and just wanted to get me to buy the car, but the point is that I saved a vew thousand dollars on the purchase of my car . I even told them that I needed to replace my car because I totaled my previous one, yet they still weren't try to pressure me or take advantage by being stingy about sticking to the retail price. In a free market, the business wants to make their customers happy, because they know they can't put guns to people's heads and force them to buy their products; and they want customers to return, and to refer or recommend others to them. When a business provides its customers what they want, both the businesses and the customers are satisfied.

    You might be wondering (or someone else reading this might be wondering), why the heck is someone defending free-market capitalism on a post-scarcity forum? I'm not defending capitalism per se; my position is simply that as long as we are in our current situation, where it's either capitalism or war, I prefer the peaceful one: capitalism. I also prefer the free-market version of capitalism over the non free market version that's far less efficient, and where people are told where they can live, they're told what to do (like repressed slaves), they're told where they can travel, they don't dare critizice their government or leaders (BTW would people be able to character attack Trump here in the US the way they do now, if they didn't have freedom of speech?), and they have walls with guns surrounding their country - to keep its prisoner-like citizens in (because it's so undesirable to be in there) rather than to keep people out (such as the one along the US-Mexico border, because it's so desirable to get into the US).

    I don't believe we'll be able to make that transition if we don't allow entrepreneurs to be free to create, innovate, improve, and compete to make things better, until those creations & improvements turn out to be all that automation & implementation of advancements in technology that wind up making the price tag an obsolete, thing of the past. TZM originally started out as the activist branch of TVP, and TVP advocates the application of the scientific method for social concern; Jacque Fresco has pointed out that the solution to society's problems are technical, not political.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    2. In a Capitalist System sense, Scarcity is real because it's designed that way for the system to work. But in a Natural System Reality sense of what the Planet can provide then No, it's not real. If anyone would just step back for a moment and calculate the available/potential Resources out there then things become more clearer on what can be produced. And also just to look at the availability of things we have now out there. I mean all the Clothes, Housing, Food, Land, Medicine etc. etc.. that's just sitting there waiting for someone to PAY for it clearly shows the Abundance we already have but are denied access to because of this Market Contrivance we are subjugated to.

    So in conclusion, Scarcity is 'real' because we design & make it that way but in REALITY, the Planet is Design to provide Abundance for All and this can easily be seen if one just takes off their Capitalist Goggles but unfortunately this is a very alien concept for many to do. Conditioning is a b*tch!
    Where do you think all the clothes, housing, food, land, medicine, etc. etc. originally came from? I can't believe that it really doesn't occur to you that someone somewhere had to exert manual labor in order for practically all of that stuff to exist! Come on, Ernest; what gives!?

  8. #18
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    What's the point Neil?

    That LABOR comes before CAPITAL? We already know that...its basic economics

    That LABOR is still waiting for its full return for the effort,,,AKA; its SHARE? ...as long as GREED reigns over us, LABOR never receives its fair DUE....Its never even come close...IMO

    Neil, as a self proclaimed Libertarian, Trump supporter, my feeling is that you also support capitalism as it is today, perhaps even getting ready to 'make a move' for personal profit real soon????

    What does a resource based economy have in common with a capitalist base economy? ...besides people to make it all work...?
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    > they're only trying to make ends meet.

    I'm reminded how most businesses only make around 5% profit as it is, if they are lucky !

    I hear profit from producing food is more like 1% !


    All that competition driving prices down. :-)


    If only there was another way to achieve the same thing . . .


    > automation & implementation of advancements in technology that wind up making the price tag an obsolete, thing of the past.

    Generally agreed there !
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouTuber View Post
    > they're only trying to make ends meet.

    I'm reminded how most businesses only make around 5% profit as it is, if they are lucky !

    I hear profit from producing food is more like 1% !


    All that competition driving prices down. :-)


    If only there was another way to achieve the same thing . . .


    > automation & implementation of advancements in technology that wind up making the price tag an obsolete, thing of the past.

    Generally agreed there !


    ...Oh my Goodness! IMHO; If business routinely makes 5% or less profit....there'd be a lot less businesses doing business, no?

    Its all a big "paper' thing anyway, right?....

    BTW; Big BIZ spends considerable amounts for 'avoiding the truth' about their profits, right? Its kinda the way we do business in general, no?
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