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Thread: Why Dystopia?

  1. #11
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    "Why Dystopia?"

    You have more potential for Drama, Edge of seat cliffhangers tension and daredevil/danger Action in a Dystopia than in a Utopia because the whole point of having a better society is to have less "drama"(war, conflicts,crime, starvation, etc) and more technical solutions, consensus etc. In a Utopia fictional setting, you could have man vs nature drama, comedy and other types of stories. Also, some people get more entertainment/thrills/adrenalin from a roller-coaster ride than a golf cart ride (partially because your attention is heightened by perceived risk/danger and by the out of the ordinary).
    Last edited by IceWendigo; 01-30-2016 at 10:00 AM.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Ah Neil...ya had me going until you mentioned that old scoundrel McCarthy......To which; I can only agree that he saw and 'believed' that 'something' was seriously wrong, and that he was indeed 'misled'....boy was he ever ......but only to point out that he was rightly and justly exposed long ago as a fearful little man, incapable of possessing vision, incapable of self critiquing or admitting to his errors of judgement and was wrongly placed in a position of great power. A very BAD combination.

    This confused A-hole McCarthy destroyed several lives using/abusing the power 'the people' had provided him.....Shame, shame....

    There's really no use mentioning McCarthyism, because it never really existed as a 'thing'.....unless of course, we're discussing modern day "Libertarianism" which is a cannibalized version of the JBS (John Birch Society) of the 50's, 60's.....(Joe's main source of info and support) ......or perhaps the similarities exhibited by a current Presidential contender, Ted Cruz.
    LOL Ted Cruz? I doubt he has much in common with JBS; his wife is a CFR member (and a Goldman Sachs alumnus); and JBS and CFR aren't exactly organizations that have warm feelings for each other (JBS probably considers CFR their biggest adversary in a sort of political sense). Are you familiar with CFR (or a book called Tragedy and Hope by Caroll Quigley)?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    How do you define dystopian? Is Star Wars dystopian, by your definition?

    What do you think of McCarthyism? I think maybe he might have gone about doing things the wrong way or might have sort of been barking up the wrong tree, but at the same time I think he may have been on to something. In other words, maybe the problem wasn't actually that Hollywood actors were crypto-communists (or whatever the exact complaint was); maybe he saw that something was seriously wrong with the picture he was seeing and may have been misled somehow?

    I haven't seen anything Star Wars in years but I know there's a lot of Fighting/Killing in it and that is very Dystopian to me. Dystopian to me would basically be a movie that's filled with Vast Unnecessary Human Suffering. And to better understand my perspective. I consider our World today as being Dystopian-like and many of the movies reflect our current state of affairs.


    I agree that Utopian movies are probably not seen as that entertaining to make but maybe that's just because the stories haven't been the best and so previous movies have failed. Writers/Producers all come from the same environments as us so they are dealing with their own conditioning that willaffect the way they create these things and I guess that leads them to a Profit Motivation slant. But I think it ultimately falls back to the Value System of these people making these movies. If it truly was their main focus to make something Utopian based, I feel like if the Talent was there, they can come up with Amazing/Entertaining ideas that could easily garner interest.


    And I believe it's there for this type of movie because have you guys ever seen those 'Restoring Faith In Humanity' type of Videos on YT. Some of those have Millions of views. I think for the same reason that people are drawn to those type of videos they would also be with Utopian style movies. That feeling of Inspiration, Hope & Change wrapped up with entertainment value. But the story has to be right and I do think that it's much easier to come up with Dystopian stories compared to Utopian ones and it might just be as simple as that for the reason why Dystopian movies are so common.


    I agree McCarthyism is similar to when people start calling something a Conspiracy and is why they sometimes get a bad rap because of how people love to go overboard with these type of accusations. I'm not saying that this issue here is about a possible Conspiracy just that there might be something deeper in all of this to look into kind of like what you said about what McCarthy might have truly been seeing and wanting to look into maybe.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    LOL Ted Cruz? I doubt he has much in common with JBS; his wife is a CFR member (and a Goldman Sachs alumnus); and JBS and CFR aren't exactly organizations that have warm feelings for each other (JBS probably considers CFR their biggest adversary in a sort of political sense). Are you familiar with CFR (or a book called Tragedy and Hope by Caroll Quigley)?

    C' Mon Man.....you replied with my quote but apparently didn't read it fully. And I think you may be mistaken in your own assessment of how CFR feels about JBS...and visa, versa.......and Ted? Well, he reminds me an awful lot of old Joe....and I'm not alone.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceWendigo View Post
    "Why Dystopia?"

    You have more potential for Drama, Edge of seat cliffhangers tension and daredevil/danger Action in a Dystopia than in a Utopia because the whole point of having a better society is to have less "drama"(war, conflicts,crime, starvation, etc) and more technical solutions, consensus etc. In a Utopia fictional setting, you could have man vs nature drama, comedy and other types of stories. Also, some people get more entertainment/thrills/adrenalin from a roller-coaster ride than a golf cart ride (partially because your attention is heightened by perceived risk/danger and by the out of the ordinary).

    That seems pretty accurate. It would be awesome to have a comedy series set in RBE style utopian society. Following everyday lives of a few friends, and interrelations in their community. Examining history, slamming jokes on the stupidity of the past society the "Culture in Decline" way.

    Btw, there's this; It's about a man from the current world, falling into coma and waking up in the post scarcity society
    http://www.wakingupmovie.com/TEASER/
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Writers/Producers all come from the same environments as us so they are dealing with their own conditioning that willaffect the way they create these things and I guess that leads them to a Profit Motivation slant. But I think it ultimately falls back to the Value System of these people making these movies.
    Probably this a large part. Living in Europe starts to feel like that movie Elysium.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    I haven't seen anything Star Wars in years but I know there's a lot of Fighting/Killing in it and that is very Dystopian to me. Dystopian to me would basically be a movie that's filled with Vast Unnecessary Human Suffering. And to better understand my perspective. I consider our World today as being Dystopian-like and many of the movies reflect our current state of affairs.
    Do you think many movies are neither dystopian nor utopian? If so, what would be a few examples of this?

    One example that comes to my mind is Apollo 13, but that's mainly about an incident predominantly based on a true story that wasn't fictional per se, aside from a few slight or superficial changes that may have been made to it for dramatic effect.

    Another thing that comes to my mind is the 1997 Titanic movie; that's different from Apollo 13 being based on a true story in that even though it involves something that really did happen (the sinking of a large ship that struck an iceberg), it's actually mainly a fictional story involving a mix of passengers who actually were on the ship and characters who never really existed in real life. It's also a story within a story; the main story is about a completely fictional "present day" treasure hunter.

    What I find interesting about Titanic is that it involves scenarios, such as the scene with the boat and submarine out at sea at the site of the sunk Titanic and insight about how wealthy families & individuals behave and act towards each other, that are distinct from your typical "Hollywood" movie product that it makes them look a bit cliched.

    One of the things I find interesting about the portrayal of the interaction of the unsinkable Molly Brown as not only "new money" to the other members of the upper class types is something that it reveals about the upper class that I think offers an important lesson to the "RBE"/post-scarcity/post-capitalist (or whatever you want to call things like TZM, TVP, etc.) advocacy organizations is that in a way it's more than the need for money that matters.

    For example, even though the unsinkable Molly Brown was a woman who had become wealthier than most of the other upper class folks on the ship, she was describe by them as a "vulgar" woman, because she was not raised upper class and didn't go through the training to have the kind of manners, behavior, or etiquette that the others possessed.

    The perception of society by the upper class is portrayed as being made of basically two kinds of people, civilized folks and savages. Doing something like spitting over the side of the ship is as disgusting and unbecoming a sight to upper class types as it would be for someone who is average middle class to see someone urinating on their car's door handle for their driver's seat.

    The main character and her mother come from the social upper class but are actually no longer wealthy because the mother's husband died in debt (it's something the rest of the upper class community isn't aware of about them), and the mother is relying on her daughter getting married to a rich guy to maintain their way of life. The very thought of having to become a seamstress to survive is horrifying to the mother that she considers it selfish for her daughter not to get married to the rich guy.

    The mother sees the poor kid who's interested in and hanging around with her daughter as her main adversary - a dangerous insect that needs to be destroyed ASAP, because he could rob her of her high class comfortable way of life. She's the same one who comes up with a plan to try to avoid the unsinkable Molly Brown when she approaches her and the other aristocratic ladies. How is it possible for someone, like this mother who isn't exactly wealthy anymore, to be so callously snobby towards a woman with wealth is far beyond her own wealth?

    That situation and answer to that question is my point. In essence, what I'm asking is this: is it just money that matters, is it money and something else, or is it only the "something else" that really matters?

    It's not necessarily a fixed answer or only one of those; I think it can change and it can depend - it's dynamic.

    It includes perspective - the mother has aristocratic types for friends but needs money. On the other hand, the unsinkable Molly Brown has money but seems to want aristocratic friends. She understands what kind of people the aristocratic types are or can be, and she's not a selfish person like them. She doesn't mind assisting the porter who's trying to carry her luggage. She's a woman who perceives her son in the same individual who the mother sees as a dangerous insect; she has empathy for him and "adopts" him knowing what he's about to enter the snake pit when he's invited to be the guest of the rich guy who's going to marry the daughter for saving her life; that's in lieu of giving him a $20 gift to thank him for his "services", after the daughter takes exception to the rich guy thinking that the $20 gift was a good idea.

    Throughout the movie, Molly Brown continues to show her humanity; rather than have the lifeboat remain at a safe distance from the sinking ship, she insists they try to go back to save people in the water. "Those are our husbands" out there, she explaims, while the rest of the aristocratic passengers don't want to say or do anything about them, revealing the lack or absence of humanity in them. She abnegates only after being threatened to get kicked out of the lifeboat by the steward who's keeping it away from the sinking ship.

    Perhaps the most interesting part of the story is that the daughter has such a dislike for the aristocatic way of life that at one point she's contemplating suicide, in order to get away from it. She sees that way of life as a prison and would rather be free of it or die. She's actually thrilled by doing things that are disgusting or unlady-like, such as spitting over the side of the ship, riding a horse "like a man", and partying and drinking with steerage passengers.

    If anyone who's a member of TZM or "RBE" advocate hasn't watched the 1997 Titanic movie, I would encourage watching it, sometime. If they have seen it before, watch it again! I think it could give some insight into society that might be helpful for doing things like broaching the concept of an "RBE" with others, or awareness-spreading in general.

    (Maybe I should've put all of this stuff about Titanic in its own thread. LOL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    I agree that Utopian movies are probably not seen as that entertaining to make but maybe that's just because the stories haven't been the best and so previous movies have failed. Writers/Producers all come from the same environments as us so they are dealing with their own conditioning that willaffect the way they create these things and I guess that leads them to a Profit Motivation slant. But I think it ultimately falls back to the Value System of these people making these movies. If it truly was their main focus to make something Utopian based, I feel like if the Talent was there, they can come up with Amazing/Entertaining ideas that could easily garner interest.
    Sure, I wouldn't disagree with that so much; but perhaps the dystopian approach could be used for movies about what our future can look like by portraying the real world as the dystopia that it is, right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    And I believe it's there for this type of movie because have you guys ever seen those 'Restoring Faith In Humanity' type of Videos on YT. Some of those have Millions of views. I think for the same reason that people are drawn to those type of videos they would also be with Utopian style movies. That feeling of Inspiration, Hope & Change wrapped up with entertainment value. But the story has to be right and I do think that it's much easier to come up with Dystopian stories compared to Utopian ones and it might just be as simple as that for the reason why Dystopian movies are so common.
    People probably watch those things because they're something different - for a change - than the typical news stories, or drivel coming from political spin doctors, on mainstream media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    I agree McCarthyism is similar to when people start calling something a Conspiracy and is why they sometimes get a bad rap because of how people love to go overboard with these type of accusations. I'm not saying that this issue here is about a possible Conspiracy just that there might be something deeper in all of this to look into kind of like what you said about what McCarthy might have truly been seeing and wanting to look into maybe.
    It makes me think of whistleblowers such as Edward Snowden & how they usually seem to be treated. When Donald Trump talked about Snowden, he said "kill the traitor."
    Last edited by Neil; 01-31-2016 at 12:10 PM.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    C' Mon Man.....you replied with my quote but apparently didn't read it fully.
    Well, I did read the entire thing and I responded to what I felt like responding to & didn't respond to what I didn't feel like responding to (like you often do even when I ask you a direct question ).

    If there's something you'd like to know and would like to ask me about, regarding the stuff I didn't respond to, please feel free to ask me your questions and I'll try to answer them.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    And I think you may be mistaken in your own assessment of how CFR feels about JBS...and visa, versa...
    You mean if we were to go down the Orwellian rabbit hole to find out if I'm mistaken? Sure, maybe you're right about that; who knows? Do you?

    On the surface, though, JBS exists as an organization that's essentially opposed to the CFR.

    https://jonkirby2012.wordpress.com/t...r-so-despised/

    Council On Foreign Relations

    The New American, for those who don't know, is basically a JBS magazine.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    ....and Ted? Well, he reminds me an awful lot of old Joe....and I'm not alone.
    Alright, but I'm not sure how that gets back to this thread's topic of dystopia in movies.
    Last edited by Neil; 01-31-2016 at 12:55 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Well, I did read the entire thing and I responded to what I felt like responding to & didn't respond to what I didn't feel like responding to (like you often do even when I ask you a direct question ).

    If there's something you'd like to know and would like to ask me about, regarding the stuff I didn't respond to, please feel free to ask me your questions and I'll try to answer them.


    You mean if we were to go down the Orwellian rabbit hole to find out if I'm mistaken? Sure, maybe you're right about that; who knows? Do you?

    On the surface, though, JBS exists as an organization that's essentially opposed to the CFR.

    https://jonkirby2012.wordpress.com/t...r-so-despised/

    Council On Foreign Relations

    The New American, for those who don't know, is basically a JBS magazine.


    Alright, but I'm not sure how that gets back to this thread's topic of dystopia in movies.
    You're the one who brought up McCarthy.....

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    You're the one who brought up McCarthy.....
    LOL yeah but not Ted the Canadian.

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