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Thread: The solution to society's problems...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceWendigo View Post
    I do not see scarcity as the key problem, scarcity isnt helping, but imo it is not a key strategic root cause.

    I think that Money, Hierarchy and Secrecy are humanity's key civilization scale root problems and have been at the core of most instances of human organisation since antiquity.
    These all have their purposes and their causes. Hierarchy & Secrecy exist because when we compete for Resources, this is inevitable to develop. And we compete against each other because resources are Scarce whether Man-Made or sometimes even naturally. Money is used in this process and as a result is part of the accumulation of resources further leading to more Hierarchy & Secrecy. But it's all done with the purpose to acquire more Resources in a Scarce Environment. And in Capitalism that's how one can make the most money and further have more resources.

    So if you look at Why Money, Hierarchy and Secrecy even exist, ask what is a key strategic root cause? Because again we have to compete for Resources and the only way we can be made to do that is if we live in an Environment based on Scarcity.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Like it or not....believe it or not.....the world is taking its first baby steps toward a 'jobless' economy
    Well, there has always been joblessness, and many things that society has been doing for a while could be considered "baby steps" towards a system where many jobs are replaced by advances in technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    .....(People need some 'fairness' and equality....not jobs)
    Actually, what people need is access to resources; and right now - basically, people need jobs to make money in order to be able to access resources by - in turn - being able to pay for them. When we have enough automation and advancements in technology, people will no longer need jobs to access resources, since they would be accessible without having a price tag on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    .... ...As Technology advances and jobs become even more scarce or obsolete, a 'basic income' for all of humanity will eventually become the norm "IF" the people finally decide to demand their 'fair share' of the wealth of the Earth
    If resources can be accessed without needing any income, there would be no need to make a basic income the norm. We don't even know if a basic income will work at all; and even if it did work, it's not going to work for very long.

    The reason a basic income won't work for long is because not only would it not help resources increase (it's a paycheck - a piece of paper with a number printed on it sent out to everyone, not some sort of magical powers), but also because prices would simply eventually increase for the same reasons they'll increase if the minimum wage gets increased.

    I've considered the feasibility of a basic income being useful to carry us over a transition if it can last long enough for that, but I don't know if it would last long enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    ....and are able to convince the 'filthy rich' that doing so is also in their best interest...
    Depends on what you mean by "convince"; what's needed is education, not only of the "filthy rich" but of people spanning across the entire wealth spectrum. I'm not sure it'll be easier or easy at all to "convince" those on the poor end of the wealth spectrum, compared to the filthy rich, because the filthy rich are probably better informed and educated, probably smarter (which is how they got to be filthy rich), and because there are far fewer of them needing convincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    If we have the numbers, the arm twisting/convincing s/b minimal.....
    Why should there be any amount of "arm twisting" at all? I think the core premise of this whole movement is to use education, not arm twisting. Arm twisting leads to walls, to keep people in rather than to keep people out; history has educated us about that.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Ahh Neil.....and you were so close to understanding with this QUOTE in your own words; "(someone has exclusive control over the resources and they're hoarding it)" That my friend, is artificial scarcity defined!!
    Yes, I know & I've gone beyond that. I've asked the following: what's the point of creating that artificial scarcity if all scarcity is just an illusion? You're not responding to that; that's what I need from you is to respond to that. Please respond to that, droneBEE.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Let me see if I can explain this better, I sometimes forget that I was introduced to the concept of 'artificial scarcity designed for capitalist profit' many years ago..........I know too well how hard it is to put our heads around a controversial or confusing idea after decades of societal conditioning......but.......We all just gotta try harder to pull the curtain back......so we all can See the light!!!!!!

    After many years of being exposed to economic study .....I now have a hard time wondering/thinking/believing 'why' some folks 'fail to see' this inherent reality and truth; .... FOR CAPITALISM TO EXIST, SCARCITY MUST BE IMPLEMENTED, INVENTED AND/OR CONTROLLED by a few undeserving, self entitled rich folks. ....do you 'see' the light yet?
    No, you have it backwards. Scarcity does not follow from capitalism, something like capitalism follows from scarcity. Scarcity is a condition of society, and capitalism is what society has come up with to try to cope with it as best as it can. Advancements in technology may someday take capitalism's place as a better way to cope with scarcity, and that's what's happening even within the paradigm of capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    ....in other words; without the illusion of scarcity (which is created/controlled/maintained for the sole purpose of manipulating/controlling ideas, people and resources for individual profit), capitalism as we know it could not exist. ....is it getting any brighter?
    What you're saying here is different - it's "other words" saying something different. I basically don't disagree that capitalism as we know it would not exist, but we'd still just have some other flavor or variety of capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    "Capitalists must create 'scarcity' in order to create capital" ....Duh....
    That's what they do because - to reiterate - there's true scarcity driving them to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    There......Does that make more sense? Really Man....its just basic Adam Smith economics....for the true believer capitalists

    Since its obvious no one wants to read Henry George's 'PROGRESS AND POVERTY' to gain some needed/required insights into this subject..... We really should think about starting a NEW THREAD on economics......both the Nature Based and the more familiar.....Artificially Based form.....perhaps it would alleviate some of the confusion....and shed some light where it was dark before...
    I have plenty of economics under my belt from college. I've taken courses in microeconomics, macroeconomics, money and banking, and even a course in engineering economics. If I were check out things such as what Adam Smith or Henry George wrote about, it would not be for me to learn basic economics so much as it would be for me to analyze what they're arguments are (e.g., what are they trying to persuade people with?), and I may have to for that purpose, when I get the opportunity.

    But sure; go ahead and start a thread on basic economics. Start with the concept of supply and demand.
    Last edited by Neil; 01-24-2016 at 03:50 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    One more..."it is absurd to claim that scarcity is not an artificial creation or 'illusion' in a world full of abundance"
    But we don't have a world of abundance. That supermarket with stocked shelves, that car dealer with more cars in the lot than customers, those department stores with clothes on the racks, etc. are all illusions of abundance; they're all there because of manual labor, and all that stuff can quickly deplete and vanish if the manual labor behind it goes away, unless we have automation and other advances in technology to take the place of all manual labor and other forms of work done by people.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Neil what your arguing is the Semantic meaning of the word Illusion. Your looking at it like dB is saying that Scarcity is not actually happening, not reality when all he's trying to say is that it is Real but it's Man-Made therefore like tricking us into believing in something, i.e an Illusion.
    But it's not just man-made or artificial scarcity, or something that's an illusion (or however you want to describe it). Some scarcity is man-made/artificial/illusion, and some scarcity is natural or the inherent/default condition of reality (i.e., "real" scarcity). There would be no incentive or point for man to make man-made scarcity if there weren't any real scarcity (that would just be silly); thus, all that matters is the real scarcity. Get rid of the real scarcity, and the man-made/artificial scarcity illusion goes away with it.
    Last edited by Neil; 01-24-2016 at 04:12 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    But we don't have a world of abundance. That supermarket with stocked shelves, that car dealer with more cars in the lot than customers, those department stores with clothes on the racks, etc. are all illusions of abundance; they're all there because of manual labor, and all that stuff can quickly deplete and vanish if the manual labor behind it goes away, unless we have automation and other advances in technology to take the place of all manual labor and other forms of work done by people.

    I can agree with this 'narrow' viewpoint....but only as looked at from a 'capitalists' mindset, which is based on illusions, delusions, lies and blatant misinformation to further the interests of other capitalists.

    This 'horse' may be dead already.....but I'll try one more time.

    This planet Earth offers us 'everything' we 'need' in abundance (I'm not speaking of man made crap from department stores, never was ), and the 'illusion' of scarcity is part of the capitalist scheme to create wealth using or 'abusing' what the Earth 'freely' provides, that which 'no human being' created....AKA; the WEALTH of the Earth (that which 'some' have proclaimed themselves owners, although no one bothered to asked the rest of us).


    A little lesson in economics;

    All WEALTH begins with what the Earth freely provides and 'rightfully' belongs to us all.....not just the LANDLORDS, Kings and Queens who refuse to SHARE.

    WEALTH is 'natural material' that has been changed in form or place so as to satisfy human desires. Thus WEALTH is material (from the Earth), that is produced by LABOR (who always receive LESS than a fair SHARE), satisfies desires and has exchange value.

    As a sidenote to this discussion.....personally, I think it'd be a GREAT IDEA for all of humanity to 'stay home' from WORK for a day, a week, a month....forever......(start prepping TODAY! If that scenario is allowed to progress, I see good things down the road......for the majority of people who need and DESERVE some good after the theft we've witnessed and suffered over the past 10,000 years.

    A few wealthy families may 'suffer' a little so that the rest of the world can experience leisure and luxury....What's wrong with a little (a lot) balancing out? Not a damn thing IMHO...



    ....and....to take this discussion just little deeper..... (maybe we can agree here )

    ...Perhaps we can discuss the one actual 'thing' that we all watch become more scarce every day and DO NOTHING to effectively correct.....Forget about running out of oil people (can't happen fast enough for me)......we're destroying our most important resource every day due to our own ignorant neglect and the capitalists plans for our future.......it is perhaps the most 'liberating' resource we have.....FREE, Clean Drinking WATER.....a resourse 'we' haphazardly pollute more and more, providing the world less every day....which has the capitalists among us salivating at the potential for WEALTH.....

    It wasn't too long ago that we could find in any major city around the globe, FREE, CLEAN WATER available to anyone and everyone on busy street corners.

    THINK; Once its all been polluted and we're forced to purchase desalinated water from the LAND/WATER LORDS.......what's next? Fresh, clean AIR in a bottle?........As an Old Man I'm happy to say (well, maybe not so happy) I won't be around for that eventuality......but still worry endlessly over my Grandkids future...and yours too..... Its WHY I FIGHT/harass/agitate politicians and talk about this stuff to anyone who'll 'listen' almost every day....just ask my wife, who's been known to kick my shins or step on my foot under numerous tables over these many years of activism.....

    Debate this; HUMANS CREATE SCARCITY (there, that's about as simple as one can explain it), both the 'illusionary' kind and the very real kinds....AND, if motivated, I believe WE can reverse the insanity of this damaging monster (humanity) before its too late......gotta keep hope alive......no matter how dark it gets....


    ....sorry to ramble on.....
    Last edited by droneBEE; 01-24-2016 at 06:53 AM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    These all have their purposes and their causes. Hierarchy & Secrecy exist because when we compete for Resources, this is inevitable to develop. And we compete against each other because resources are Scarce whether Man-Made or sometimes even naturally. Money is used in this process and as a result is part of the accumulation of resources further leading to more Hierarchy & Secrecy. But it's all done with the purpose to acquire more Resources in a Scarce Environment. And in Capitalism that's how one can make the most money and further have more resources.

    So if you look at Why Money, Hierarchy and Secrecy even exist, ask what is a key strategic root cause? Because again we have to compete for Resources and the only way we can be made to do that is if we live in an Environment based on Scarcity.


    "What is the key strategic ROOT cause." Why its LAND, of course....how we use and abuse it, and who owns or controls it....
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    No, you have it backwards. Scarcity does not follow from capitalism, something like capitalism follows from scarcity. Scarcity is a condition of society, and capitalism is what society has come up with to try to cope with it as best as it can. ..
    I don't want to intervene in your and DroneBee's discussion but I just wanted to point out that perhaps the above quoted is not always the case every time. For instance, land is a resource that isn't really in short supply and yet not everyone can gain access to their own land because the price tags and land management ethos put on it by a monetary system.

    But I'd also like to further advance DroneBee's argument, at least, in the case of food.

    What generates food growth on the Earth? Sunlight, earth and water. So if we are going to posit scarcity in food we have to ask ourselves how scarce are those three resources of sunlight, earth and water? For something to be scarce, doesn't the energy that generates it and from which it arises out of also have to be scarce? But we all know sunlight is not in short supply.

    What seems to be scarce is our good management of those three resources that generate food production, not those three resources themselves.
    Last edited by fsir; 01-24-2016 at 08:01 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Wow what an interesting discussion, now i'm on the fence but still think neil is correct. i came up with a formula to determine scarcity, any mathematician can help me out here???
    R*T/P*A

    R = the amount of resources in a given area on a given time.
    T = the technology(including energy and manual labor) of the species to harness, transport and process the resources.
    P = population of the species with a combination of consumption per capita.
    A = artificial scarcity by members of the species to create differential advantage.

    anyway, this is how i see it.

    for anyone who thinks that scarcity is exclusively man made, look at the Amazon jungle - there is plenty of light, water, land and nutrients but despite all of that the place is brutal and species are fighting each other tooth and nail, plants are competing for sunlight. so this place is abundant in resources, but still scarcity exist because you have to divide the amount of resources by the population who compete for the resources.

    its easy for us humans to say that abundance is everywhere(especially in the u.s, where we killed our competition the bisons and mammoth), but we have to be honest with ourselves - scarcity is a fundamental property of nature.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    for anyone who thinks that scarcity is exclusively man made, look at the Amazon jungle - there is plenty of light, water, land and nutrients but despite all of that the place is brutal and species are fighting each other tooth and nail, plants are competing for sunlight. so this place is abundant in resources, but still scarcity exist because you have to divide the amount of resources by the population who compete for the resources.

    its easy for us humans to say that abundance is everywhere(especially in the u.s, where we killed our competition the bisons and mammoth), but we have to be honest with ourselves - scarcity is a fundamental property of nature.
    But that's the point droneBEE was trying to make, isn't it? (If I may take the liberty of guessing droneBee's thoughts for a moment?) Scarcity is introduced by species that don't know what they are doing in regards to managing resources, including humans. We don't have to compete for these resources but the limitations of our intelligence and evolution (especially the lower species) cause us to fall back on primitive behaviors to manage resources.

    Look at our relationship with the dog. 50,000 years ago we were adversaries over resources with the ancestors of the dog. But we learned that we could recognize the dog's need of resources and entered a symbiotic relationship with them where both of our needs for resources can be peacefully recognized by the other. And so scarcity is not a fundamental property of Nature but manifests in the way species manage their environment.
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