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Thread: The solution to society's problems...

  1. #21
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    To me its clear that scarcity is the main problem, maybe even the only problem. its been here for 4 billion years long before money politics or religion. this is the state of nature.
    it goes something like this: Nature is prolific, there are many more creatures who are born that can possibly survive given the amount of resources. so they compete over the scarce resources in order to survive and reproduce, resulting in war.

    Nature is also brutal and cruel... all organisms fight within their own species, with other species and with natural catastrophes. human civilization has been able to mitigate this brutality to some extent, that's why we have it relatively easy compared to animals, but on the other hand
    we also created artificial scarcity that exacerbate the problem.

    For the first time in history we now have the chance to tackle this problem seriously. what we need to do as a species is to reduce scarcity and create abundance as much as we can through technological innovation. dealing with religion, ideology or politics is a waste of time and energy in my opinion.
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  2. #22
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    Hi Neil, I disagree, since imo the overarching problem is Organisation, how society functions. The solution is to organise and function differently, differently from the blight of money, hierarchy and secrecy which are archaic characteristics that need to be identified as problematic and then scrapped and replaced.

    “the people who are homeless,”
    When a family is thrown out of their home, because they can't pay back a tiny fraction of an amount of money a bank just created out of thin air in the first place, the problem is not that there's no house for the family to live in… if the house is there and people are in need without a roof it's a dysfunctional organisation of society issue, not a scarcity issue, and even if there wasn't a home we have the resources to build homes. If we ship resources to the other side of the planet so that plastic novelty dog sh#t can be manufactured while people starve or build bombs to destroy houses instead of building houses for people that lack shelter, it has nothing to do with scarcity, everything to do with dysfunctional society a bad organisation of society and human activity.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceWendigo View Post
    Hi Neil, I disagree, since imo the overarching problem is Organisation, how society functions. The solution is to organise and function differently, differently from the blight of money, hierarchy and secrecy which are archaic characteristics that need to be identified as problematic and then scrapped and replaced.

    “the people who are homeless,”
    When a family is thrown out of their home, because they can't pay back a tiny fraction of an amount of money a bank just created out of thin air in the first place, the problem is not that there's no house for the family to live in… if the house is there and people are in need without a roof it's a dysfunctional organisation of society issue, not a scarcity issue, and even if there wasn't a home we have the resources to build homes. If we ship resources to the other side of the planet so that plastic novelty dog sh#t can be manufactured while people starve or build bombs to destroy houses instead of building houses for people that lack shelter, it has nothing to do with scarcity, everything to do with dysfunctional society a bad organisation of society and human activity.
    Hello IceWendigo.

    That house didn't just magically appear out of thin air for them to move into it. It got there because people who know how to build houses put it there, and it couldn't get there without manual labor; it's construction contractors who make houses to sell them on the market.

    Those who built that house, whether it was the ones who put in the manual labor effort (carpenters, electricians, bricklayers, plumbers, HVAC contractors, etc.), someone in some office building picking up the phone and calling someone to place an order for construction supplies, etc. all do what they do with the expectation that they're going to get compensated for their effort, so they in turn don't become homeless. In order for them to get compensated, those who rent or purchase those homes have to pay their rent or mortgage.

    If they don't pay their rent or mortgage, the construction companies don't get paid; if the construction companies don't get paid, they can't pay their employees or subcontractors. If their employees or subcontractors don't get paid, then they're the ones who lose their own homes because they can't pay their own rent or mortgages.

    That's only the tip of the iceberg; there are many other unseen actors besides the construction workers involved in the process of getting homes built (investors, architects, engineers, truck drivers, suppliers, manufacturers, etc.) and there's the college and training that they all had to go through whether it was just a few weeks of driving school to be a truck driver, or years of college to become the engineers who design the layout of the neighborhoods, roads, electrical grid, gas line system, sewer system, telephone poles to provide internet/phone/electricity, etc. All of these individuals have to be compensated for their effort, and it comes from the people who live in those homes paying their rent or mortgage.
    Last edited by Neil; 01-22-2016 at 11:47 PM.

  4. #24
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    To add to that - if everyone decided to quit their job, what would happen?

    There wouldn't be someone to operate the trains that delivers the coal to run the power plants to produce electricity, and because of that alone it's lights out for everyone; we won't be able to use our computers, watch TV, run our air conditioners, washers & dryers, dish washing machines, refrigerators, etc.

    The roads and utilities would fall into disrepair because there is no maintenance crew. There would be nothing in the supermarkets because no one is producing food, shipping the food to the stores, or running the store to stock the shelves.

    There wouldn't be manufacturers making door knobs, windows, smart phones, light bulbs, tools, chairs, tables, etc. etc.

  5. #25
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    if everyone decided to quit their job, what would happen?
    why would everyone decide to quit their job? and why did workers continue their job during Spanish anarchy in the 30s?

    (and, in the case of a family loosing their homes because they can't make a few months of payments on a 25 year mortgage in which they pay twice the initial price all the people that built the house have already been paid with money the bank created out of thin air, the house is made paid and right there)
    Last edited by IceWendigo; 01-23-2016 at 02:23 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceWendigo View Post
    why would everyone decide to quit their job?
    They wouldn't. I'm trying to point out is that there are consequences if work that's done stops getting done. If there weren't consequences, then it wouldn't matter it people stopped paying their rent or mortgages; so people might as well just quit paying their rent or mortgage, in this case. For that matter, in that case it wouldn't matter if a home is rented or owned or just squatted in.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceWendigo View Post
    and why did workers continue their job during Spanish anarchy in the 30s?
    I wouldn't know; why wouldn't they continue their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by IceWendigo View Post
    (and, in the case of a family loosing their homes because they can't make a few months of payments on a 25 year mortgage in which they pay twice the initial price all the people that built the house have already been paid with money the bank created out of thin air, the house is made paid and right there)
    Because they're only paid a finite amount of money, and over time that money depletes by getting spent to pay rent/mortgage, other debts & bills, more food, etc. They need to make more money so they can continue to afford things next month, next year, etc.

    Young people are entering the work force every day, and those who have been working for a few decades are retiring. When the young people enter the work force, they're getting their own homes to rent or mortgage, so those homes need to be built for them. At any time, someone's taking out a loan such as to purchase a new vehicle.

    It's a continuous, ongoing cycle every day of new homes being built, new loans or mortgages being taken out, etc. It's not as though once enough houses are built we can all stop doing anymore work (at least not until we transition by implementing the technology that will replace all manual labor and many other forms of work/jobs) because all the homes we need will be built. It's a task that doesn't end, whether it's because old homes need to be replaced, more people need homes, etc.

    In reality, banks are not exactly creating money out of thin air; money in circulation now was loaned into existence. If every FRN "dollar" that was loaned into existence were paid off, there would no longer be any FRN "dollars" in circulation.

  7. #27
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    Like it or not....believe it or not.....the world is taking its first baby steps toward a 'jobless' economy.....(People need some 'fairness' and equality....not jobs) .... ...As Technology advances and jobs become even more scarce or obsolete, a 'basic income' for all of humanity will eventually become the norm "IF" the people finally decide to demand their 'fair share' of the wealth of the Earth....and are able to convince the 'filthy rich' that doing so is also in their best interest...

    If we have the numbers, the arm twisting/convincing s/b minimal.....
    Ernest and HAL9000 like this.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    I'm trying to figure out why you keep insisting that scarcity is an illusion. Yes, there are some situations where people do try to make something, such as diamonds, seem like they're more scarce than they actually are; but it's still scarcity (someone has exclusive control over the resource and they're hoarding it). But just because there are situations where people have tried to create the illusion that something's scarce doesn't mean all scarcity is an illusion; this is what's known as a "hasty generalization" fallacy (e.g., "some birds are red things, therefore all birds are red things", or "some birds are red things, therefore all red things are birds"). The reason people put effort into trying to make something that's scarce appear more scarce than it actually is, is because there's real scarcity driving them to do that in the first place. On the other hand, if there were no scarcity, people would not bother wasting their time trying to create the illusion that there is scarcity. It's absurd to claim that scarcity is an illusion.
    Ahh Neil.....and you were so close to understanding with this QUOTE in your own words; "(someone has exclusive control over the resources and they're hoarding it)" That my friend, is artificial scarcity defined!!

    Let me see if I can explain this better, I sometimes forget that I was introduced to the concept of 'artificial scarcity designed for capitalist profit' many years ago..........I know too well how hard it is to put our heads around a controversial or confusing idea after decades of societal conditioning......but.......We all just gotta try harder to pull the curtain back......so we all can See the light!!!!!!

    After many years of being exposed to economic study .....I now have a hard time wondering/thinking/believing 'why' some folks 'fail to see' this inherent reality and truth; .... FOR CAPITALISM TO EXIST, SCARCITY MUST BE IMPLEMENTED, INVENTED AND/OR CONTROLLED by a few undeserving, self entitled rich folks. ....do you 'see' the light yet?

    ....in other words; without the illusion of scarcity (which is created/controlled/maintained for the sole purpose of manipulating/controlling ideas, people and resources for individual profit), capitalism as we know it could not exist. ....is it getting any brighter?

    "Capitalists must create 'scarcity' in order to create capital" ....Duh....

    There......Does that make more sense? Really Man....its just basic Adam Smith economics....for the true believer capitalists

    Since its obvious no one wants to read Henry George's 'PROGRESS AND POVERTY' to gain some needed/required insights into this subject..... We really should think about starting a NEW THREAD on economics......both the Nature Based and the more familiar.....Artificially Based form.....perhaps it would alleviate some of the confusion....and shed some light where it was dark before...
    Last edited by droneBEE; 01-23-2016 at 07:01 AM.
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  9. #29
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    One more..."it is absurd to claim that scarcity is not an artificial creation or 'illusion' in a world full of abundance"
    Last edited by droneBEE; 01-23-2016 at 07:16 AM.

  10. #30
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    Neil what your arguing is the Semantic meaning of the word Illusion. Your looking at it like dB is saying that Scarcity is not actually happening, not reality when all he's trying to say is that it is Real but it's Man-Made therefore like tricking us into believing in something, i.e an Illusion.

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