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Thread: Scarcity in an RBE

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    Scarcity in an RBE

    Hello forum land,

    I had a long discussion with a couple of guys who were against an RBE last night and they posed some questions that slightly stumped me so I thought I'd give a shout out here and see what you guys and gals think.

    The idea of a beach front property or an apartment with a perfect view of a sunset was presented as scarce, and it does not matter if all the basic needs are taken care of in a population, there will still be greed pertaining to these assets. what would stop someone in an RBE from building a new house in front of their neighbors to take advantage of the view of the sunset or access to the beach.
    And on the flip side, what would incentivize the people already staying in the house to give it up for others who wanted to have this privilege?

    thanks guys

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcV View Post
    Hello forum land,

    I had a long discussion with a couple of guys who were against an RBE last night and they posed some questions that slightly stumped me so I thought I'd give a shout out here and see what you guys and gals think.

    The idea of a beach front property or an apartment with a perfect view of a sunset was presented as scarce, and it does not matter if all the basic needs are taken care of in a population, there will still be greed pertaining to these assets. what would stop someone in an RBE from building a new house in front of their neighbors to take advantage of the view of the sunset or access to the beach.
    And on the flip side, what would incentivize the people already staying in the house to give it up for others who wanted to have this privilege?

    thanks guys
    they have the impression that people can do anything, no money does not mean no bureaucracy. Altho land would not be owned, it is common heritage and thus would require common consensus. Platforms would exist manage these wants and permissions. With better and better display technology, a view isnt scarce. Values would incur people to do due diligence research before putting their wants above already established wants of others.
    The virtual world will offer much more and better views, i want a supernovaset in my view.

    Would you really set yourself up with the system we have just because of conflicts like that? Just throw away all that potential just because you cant buy that view.
    Remain in a seriously detrimental and inefficient system because of small problems that can be solved through communication but you would rather be able to buy your way through them?
    Last edited by Gaby_64; 03-19-2014 at 04:41 PM.
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    Thanks Gaby, that makes sense.

    From the discussions I have had people are ready to throw out a new system because of some nitpicky theoretical critique that they come up with on the spot, which they believe refutes the entire argument. Wildest form of cognitive dissonance, but unfortunately it happens more often then I'd like.
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    I think that this is one of the most important types of issues to be able to address properly so as to not make what we're trying to advocate sound unappealing to those who we are trying to spread awareness to, and have grown up and live in a world of scarcity, crime, poverty, war, propaganda, fraud, deception, misery, etc.

    To be able to make a case for what we advocate, look at things from their perspective; this isn't difficult to do, because unless you're someone who would be happy living in something like an Amish type of community (in which case they're already out there; they exist so you'll be able to get what you want by living with them), then you in actuality already do have "their" perspective. The difference is that they're willing to admit that they hold the position that they do; they're willing to admit that they want nice things and want a world that allows them to be able to get them, and not a world that prevents them from being able to have nice things.

    What they hear from you depends on what you say to them. If you say something to them that makes it sound like you want to prevent them from having nice things, then they're not going to want it to happen, and maybe even oppose and resist any of your effort or attempts. I am one of "them" and I admit that I myself want nice things, and want a world that allows me to get them, and not a world that prevents me from being able to have nice things. This includes telling them that things like permissions will be needed; if you do this they're going to want to know who gets to decide who gets permission and why should they agree to let them decide who gets permission and who gets denied (and good luck with that, because unless you've got a miracle answer for them, you're going to fail to win them over).

    If you say something that makes it sound like you want them to have nice things, there's another problem; they're going to be skeptical. Can you blame them? We live in a world of fraud and deception. Because of this, something else will have to be done (that's more than just a claim that you want them to get and have nice things). This something else is to show them (or at least be able to explain to them) how this can be achieved. If you pay attention to what Jacque Fresco says, you might see that he understands this and maybe even agrees with this notion.

    Now, when it comes to who gets homes with beach front views, the answer is anyone who wants it. How is this possible (you would be right to wonder)? Because, there won't be more demand for beach front view homes than supply. Why is this, you might be continuing to wonder? There are several reasons why. The first one is that there is plenty of beach front view space throughout the world, and plenty of skyscrapers can be built to make for homes with beach front views (if necessary).

    I personally can't imagine very many people wanting to spend their entire lives staring at some beach front view; at some point it's bound to get rather boring to many people. The small handful of people who would never get bored of the same sort of background or scenery can just stay where they are and enjoy it. Those who will only enjoy it for a couple years can do that, move one, and someone else can move into the homes they vacate to enjoy the view for however long they want to.

    A person can only be in one place at a time, so when you're living in one place enjoying the beach front view, that leaves all other places with beach front views available for the rest of society. As these types of people move around, it means different places have more space that is or becomes available than is needed or taken up (on average).

    There are also plenty of uninhabited islands, and people can live there and enjoy beach front views from there. Right now we don't have people living on unihabited island because, well, we don't live in an "RBE" yet & it's not feasible right now. Once we do, we won't need jobs, we won't need supermarkets or money to get food, and we will probably have transportation that makes it easier to get to and from these presently uninhabited islands, so it won't be the same as being trapped on an island like the stranded people on Gilligan's Island.

    Another reason is that not everyone is going to be interested in beach front views, at least as much as say living and enjoying other types of views or environments to live in. We'll be able to turn the world into a more aesthetic parks, gardens, etc. with more views, sceneries, and things to enjoy than people will be able to absorb in a lifetime, and people are probably going to want to spend more time traveling and enjoying the different views, parks, scenarios, and other types of environments than staying put in one place all the time.

    This is the approach you take for addressing these kinds of questions that is more likely to result in a positive response or reaction from "them". It doesn't matter if I'm a little off the mark or wrong with some of the details or ideas in what I've written; make adjustments or improvements to the approach I propose here if you feel it's necessary. The point is that if you talk to people like "them" and want to be able to "pitch" and "sell" what you advocate, find a way to formulate, convey, and present the idea to "them" in such a way that they can understand and get the picture.

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    Kodos Neil, well put!

    It seems like you could do a statistical analysis of where people would like to live, seashores, mountains, etc., build tall, wide city structures, with all living spaces on the outside skin having unobstructed views.

    As Neil pointed out there is a natural movement of people from one place to another as their tastes change.

    And if there is a scarcity of the particular accommodations that people want, build more.

    Also, if, for any reason there is a scarcity of something, what is wrong with using the same systems as we use in the present system like lotteries, waiting lists and flipping a coin (even if it is non-monetary:-) in the interim?
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    Also this assumes that under an RBE, houses will always be in fixed locations, technology always improves and the impossible of today may be the reality of tomorrow. Maybe we will return to a nomadic style life, if it makes sense, where cities move locations, rotate or float etc.
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    This is cherry picking if I ever saw it.

    As though the lack of sea-front property is reason enough to forfeit the emotional and psychological health of billions of people...to end war, crime, disease and slavery.

    Tell your friend that there won't be a way. That millions of people will be denied the pleasure of living on the coast. Although there is more than enough coastline for everyone on the planet to have a home on the coast and there won't be any authority figure that will stop them if they ever decide to build one for themselves.

    It's also very important to let the knowledge sink in that this society is not going to be established on the principle of individualism. There won't be a "My Home." The planet will be our home. Chances are, the vast majority of people will spend much of their time traveling from region to region.

    The world is filled to the brim with beautiful places. Why would anyone want to set anchor in one place?

    Regardless, nothing is perfect.

    And I'll be the first to admit that this system will have FAR more dire issues than the shortage of high-demand residences.But I find it stunning how most people approach this vision with the impression that it must be perfect.

    Where the hell does it say that an RBE is going to solve every problem we can ever experience? That everyone will become a saint overnight, and no people will get hurt, and that anything you want, you will receive? We're not out to create heaven on Earth. We're only trying to pull ourselves out of hell.
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    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. " --Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxexpress View Post
    Also, if, for any reason there is a scarcity of something, what is wrong with using the same systems as we use in the present system like lotteries, waiting lists and flipping a coin (even if it is non-monetary:-) in the interim?
    Because the people who presently own beach front property aren't going to want to give it away to some lottery. Even if we were to somehow get a bunch of money or resources to buy or set up beach front property and homes (in the interim) for people who can't afford such things, I'm not sure I see how that would be beneficial or helpful for transitioning to an "RBE" or post-scarcity society. I'm not even sure if it would actually result in an impedance or not. It's probably better to have some sort of transition plan or process that's designed to incentivize people to want to start the transition and to want to work their way to "completing" it (to the point that there's basically no more poverty, war, pollution, crime, corruption, fraud, etc.) and having the desire to keep it that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    This is cherry picking if I ever saw it.
    Not necessarily; it's just a matter of perception of present-day society (and it's accurate, too). Those of us advocating "RBE", post-scarcity, the application of the scientific method, a society that doesn't require money to be able to get by, etc. are advocating a concept or vision. Sharing this vision with others is going to require better ways for dealing with rebuttals than projecting them of being "cherry picking". Not only will this not change their minds, but it will only serve to make them even more rigidly opposed to it. It's not a good approach; it's counter-productive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    As though the lack of sea-front property is reason enough to forfeit the emotional and psychological health of billions of people...to end war, crime, disease and slavery.
    That, unfortunately, is the way many people are. They don't care because it's out of sight & out of mind, it's not their problem or fault that life isn't fair, etc. Not only do they not care, but they'll care if or when someone tries to come along - in a world where scarcity is and always has been a prevalent and inherent part of society - and tries to tell them that they have to give up the nice things they have. All they see and hear is someone trying to steal from them; that's the only way they can comprehend how to perceive what's being done to them.

    Some people might retort to this kind of thing with the argument that they paid their dues (taxes, charity, etc.) and earned what they own. They voted for the guy who promised to solve these problems and he's in office now - "so leave me alone; I don't want to hear about it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Tell your friend that there won't be a way. That millions of people will be denied the pleasure of living on the coast. Although there is more than enough coastline for everyone on the planet to have a home on the coast and there won't be any authority figure that will stop them if they ever decide to build one for themselves.
    Please don't tell this to your friend; I already covered why this is a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    It's also very important to let the knowledge sink in that this society is not going to be established on the principle of individualism.
    What "knowledge" are you referring to? This is obviously the worst thing to say to someone who's probably pro-individualist, and it is completely unnecessary to push aside individualism for collective predominance. This idea is a nice way to scare people away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    There won't be a "My Home."
    There won't be a need for a "my home", unlike the way there's a need for such a thing today; but if you want to freak people out, tell them that they won't have a "my home". I myself have no desire to freak people out, so I wouldn't say such a thing to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    The planet will be our home.
    Let's just say that the planet will continue to be our home and the idea is to make it a great home for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Chances are, the vast majority of people will spend much of their time traveling from region to region.

    The world is filled to the brim with beautiful places. Why would anyone want to set anchor in one place?

    Regardless, nothing is perfect.

    And I'll be the first to admit that this system will have FAR more dire issues than the shortage of high-demand residences.But I find it stunning how most people approach this vision with the impression that it must be perfect.

    Where the hell does it say that an RBE is going to solve every problem we can ever experience? That everyone will become a saint overnight, and no people will get hurt, and that anything you want, you will receive? We're not out to create heaven on Earth. We're only trying to pull ourselves out of hell.
    Now this is something I can more or less agree & go along with, after bashing just about everything else you had to say in this post. It's basically a realistic and honest assessment; and there's nothing wrong with admitting this and talking about it with anyone. A reasonable pro-individualist person can understand reality very well and would respect honesty.
    Last edited by Neil; 03-23-2014 at 04:58 AM.
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    Thanks Neil, I think you explained it really well. And also brought up what is the real core of the issue......communication. How to get the ideas proposed by an RBE across to the 'others.' This is probably the hardest thing to do as an advocate as it requires a whole other skill set (after learning the relatively dense NLBRE material ).
    Would you have any recommendations off the top of your head for those of us interested in developing these skills? That is perhaps a far more productive act. (apart from trial and error haha)
    How to win friends and influence people, comes to mind.
    Ernest likes this.

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