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Thread: Scarcity in an RBE

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Not necessarily; it's just a matter of perception of present-day society (and it's accurate, too). Those of us advocating "RBE", post-scarcity, the application of the scientific method, a society that doesn't require money to be able to get by, etc. are advocating a concept or vision. Sharing this vision with others is going to require better ways for dealing with rebuttals than projecting them of being "cherry picking". Not only will this not change their minds, but it will only serve to make them even more rigidly opposed to it. It's not a good approach; it's counter-productive.
    Yes, it is accurate. When I said that he was cherry picking, I wasn't saying that his friend was wrong. I was saying that his friend was directing his attention at the most trivial point in the midst of mountains of far more pressing and serious issues that an RBE would resolve.

    Ha! Oh yes, I know it won't change their minds.

    So, what you're advising is that we renounce reason, and appeal to their ego so that we don't make them uncomfortable? Well, I think the fact that we're going tear down national boundaries, remove religion from any place of authority in society, render money obsolete, and place the means of production into the hands of a highly advanced global computer network. I think we've lost our opportunity to make them comfortable.

    Rather than avoiding the things which must be said, I think we can revise them so that they're said more subtly. No one needs to come out and say the other party is an idiot who can't think clearly. But by asking the right questions with the right tone and phrasing it properly, you can lead the person to realize that his approach is very flawed.


    That, unfortunately, is the way many people are. They don't care because it's out of sight & out of mind, it's not their problem or fault that life isn't fair, etc. Not only do they not care, but they'll care if or when someone tries to come along - in a world where scarcity is and always has been a prevalent and inherent part of society - and tries to tell them that they have to give up the nice things they have. All they see and hear is someone trying to steal from them; that's the only way they can comprehend how to perceive what's being done to them.
    And...do you think we can get anywhere near an RBE when people think like that?

    An RBE will require a massive dose of empathy to realize, especially when you consider that it's predominately people from advanced western societies that are driving this. We all probably lead fairly comfortable lives, we don't have to do this. The peoples whose lives will improve the most are probably groveling in their filth right now struggling to find food. These aren't going to be the people who drive global revolution. It will be our empathy of their situation and the realization that we cannot sustain life on a thick foundation of individualism.

    Some people might retort to this kind of thing with the argument that they paid their dues (taxes, charity, etc.) and earned what they own. They voted for the guy who promised to solve these problems and he's in office now - "so leave me alone; I don't want to hear about it."
    That would matter if we were suggesting reforms to our current socioeconomic system. But an RBE won't have taxation, it won't have labor.

    What "knowledge" are you referring to? This is obviously the worst thing to say to someone who's probably pro-individualist, and it is completely unnecessary to push aside individualism for collective predominance. This idea is a nice way to scare people away.
    It would be a catastrophe if we lost the support of a handful egomaniacs who believe that they've singlehandly "earned" their materially saturated life styles. I mean do you honestly think that these people are even remotely interested in supporting us? They would have nothing to gain.

    An RBE represents everything that they fear: The loss of all of their property.

    So, please. Take the time to tell us how we can break it to these poor people, that everything that they've worked for over the course of their lives, will be lost as soon as we have an RBE.

    There won't be a need for a "my home", unlike the way there's a need for such a thing today; but if you want to freak people out, tell them that they won't have a "my home". I myself have no desire to freak people out, so I wouldn't say such a thing to them.
    It's the truth. We will not have property in an RBE. I hope it freaks them out--that would only be a reflection of how little exposure they've had with these ideas. We have nothing to hide.

    ...A reasonable pro-individualist person can understand reality very well and would respect honesty.
    This is hilarious. Because everything you said before this final sentence implied that individualists are very irrational and do not respect honesty. That's why they would feel uncomfortable and disturbed as we...tell the truth about what would happen in an RBE.

    _______________________________

    If we're going to make compromises every time we make a person uncomfortable or angry...then I honestly have no idea what the hell we're trying to accomplish, because we're going to make millions of people very scared and very angry. An RBE holds damn near every aspect of our current society in contempt. We're threatening the definitions of reality which have governed the lives of billions of people. So yes, very many people are going to be angry at us.

    But instead of cowering away from this, we should stand up and realize that our message is getting across to these people if they feel threatened by it. It's a mark of progress.
    Ernest likes this.
    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. " --Friedrich Nietzsche

  2. #12
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    Because the people who presently own beach front property aren't going to want to give it away to some lottery.
    Neil, you misunderstand what I'm saying. You are focused on transition (getting there), while I'm speaking about steady state (when the RBE is actually in operation).

    People often ask the nit picky, but valid, question; well, in this "perfect" system you will still have (in this example) more and less desirable views, therefore there will be inequities. So how do you resolve these problems zeitgeister?

    All I'm saying is that:

    1. Engineer in such a way as to align with peoples desires and minimize inequities

    2. If there are inequities, why can't you resolve them the same way you resolve inequities in the present system (i.e lotteries, flipping a coin or other means of fair resolution).

    Consider the following inequity and potential scarcity. The RBE is in existence and everyone is free to travel where they want since they have all this free time. What if a large amount of people want tromp through the Amazon. Certainly we have a responsible for the ecosystem which a large contingent of the human invasive species will destroy just by being there. You will need to establish limitations of the areas that will be allowed to be visited and how many people can visit at one time. Therefore, you will need to establish some type of method to process people through a limited system in an equitable way. Lottery anyone?
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  3. #13
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    @Paradox

    Regarding your Amazon hypothetical.

    I really think that we will have to suffer through these unavoidable, experience driven, instances of scarcity (including the property issue) until we have perfected virtual reality.

    Because it's not possible to place multiple people into the same given square footage without deteriorating the quality of the experience.....unless we can take the experience to the individual through virtual reality or terraforming. Although I'd say virtual reality is a much closer reality than massive scale transformation of the planet's surface (and that also comes with a few moral implications as well.)
    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. " --Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcV View Post
    Thanks Neil, I think you explained it really well. And also brought up what is the real core of the issue......communication. How to get the ideas proposed by an RBE across to the 'others.' This is probably the hardest thing to do as an advocate as it requires a whole other skill set (after learning the relatively dense NLBRE material ).
    Would you have any recommendations off the top of your head for those of us interested in developing these skills? That is perhaps a far more productive act. (apart from trial and error haha)
    How to win friends and influence people, comes to mind.
    Yeah, I think that Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends & Influence People is one good resource; you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar & this book basically goes in depth into covering how to do that.

    Other reading suggestions:

    Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert B. Cialdini, PhD. - Something like this is useful for helping with conveying sound arguments. The purpose of something like this is not to take advantage of people, because in the long run, not only does it not help our cause, but it might even harm it.

    The Prince by Machiavelli - I think this is something that can be useful for exploring and gaining some insight into our "man vs scarcity" struggle, in order to have a better perspective on how to encourage society to improve its focus on how to deal with it better.

    The Art of War by Sun Tzu - this is a book for teaching people how to fight a war, but I think it can also provide good advice on how to "fight" an intellectual "war" (rather than a physical one). Don't think of it as a war against other people; instead, think of it as a "war" against things like poverty, homelessness, corruption, pollution, and war itself. I'm not talking about waging a war the way we wage a war on drugs by sending armed men to knock down doors to go after drug dealers, I'm just talking about being effective and efficient our efforts to educate and spread awareness about things like the application of the scientific method for social concern, etc.

    Animal Farm by George Orwell - This could be useful for learning how not to do things.

    There's also a resource mentioned right here on this forum that I think is beneficial: Nonviolent communication course
    Last edited by Neil; 03-24-2014 at 01:34 AM.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post

    It's also very important to let the knowledge sink in that this society is not going to be established on the principle of individualism. There won't be a "My Home." The planet will be our home. Chances are, the vast majority of people will spend much of their time traveling from region to region.
    And that right there is why it will never happen. There will have to be some force, some state, to destroy groups who have other ideas for how the world should be run. I plan on starting my own group and promote another way of living and eventually my group will become dominate and I will be the leader if there is no one to oppose me.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoPigeon View Post
    And that right there is why it will never happen. There will have to be some force, some state, to destroy groups who have other ideas for how the world should be run. I plan on starting my own group and promote another way of living and eventually my group will become dominate and I will be the leader if there is no one to oppose me.
    That's a very pessimistic way of interpreting social behavior.

    Implicit in the existence of this movement is the belief that people can learn and change. If we believe that there are large numbers of people who cannot change, then our vision is entirely hopeless.
    Ernest likes this.
    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. " --Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #17
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    Ozy….Well…I must disagree. IMHO; we should 'expect' resistance from "large numbers of people who cannot (will not) ever change" - who will challenge a RBE every step of the way, a large majority of the population I suspect……without some form of global crisis bringing us together I just don't see it. The current 'support' for the Status Quo by otherwise intelligent people is telling enough in this regard, not to mention the extreme right, who are unwilling to be moved anywhere near this direction…from my personal experience. As an activist for over 40 years I've come to expect and accept 'strong' resistance…it is the reality of any movement.

    People don't like change, even though it might be good for them and everything around them. Rest assured and be prepared for a well organized Band of folks that will NEVER be happy about a RBE…EVER. Does none of us any good to deny their existence or believe they'll change with the right convincing (some only understand violence and I don't go there).

    However, I don't believe such resistance will make the vision hopeless by any means. A RBE as described by TZM will take generations, if not centuries to 'fully' implement globally…so I take a LONG VIEW…. My concern? Is there enough time remaining to make the efforts today, honorable as they are, matter for tomorrow?
    Ernest likes this.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Ozy….Well…I must disagree. IMHO; we should 'expect' resistance from "large numbers of people who cannot (will not) ever change" - who will challenge a RBE every step of the way, a large majority of the population I suspect……without some form of global crisis bringing us together I just don't see it. The current 'support' for the Status Quo by otherwise intelligent people is telling enough in this regard, not to mention the extreme right, who are unwilling to be moved anywhere near this direction…from my personal experience. As an activist for over 40 years I've come to expect and accept 'strong' resistance…it is the reality of any movement.
    Everyone can and does change all time. Even the most impassioned conservatives have experienced some minor changes in their political beliefs over the course of their lives. If you're thinking of the immediate time scale, the problem in that case would be that some people require much more stimulus in order to change than others. Especially when it concerns personal matters such as politics. I think one of the Zeitgeist movies discussed this issue. No one wants to admit that they're wrong especially not that they've been wrong for entire years. But either gradual realizations over the course of many years or sudden revelations in the immediate, can have profound effects on people's belief systems. Catastrophes unfortunately have the most far-reaching effects. Not always for the better, but it leads people to search outside of the box for solutions, as they realize that the conventional approaches have failed.

    If that happens, the Right is probably going to established some form of a Nationalist-totalitarian-capitalist party. And the left will be marginalized and hunted, labeled off as terrorists.

    And people will realize just how far the hypocrisies of government went.

    People don't like change, even though it might be good for them and everything around them. Rest assured and be prepared for a well organized Band of folks that will NEVER be happy about a RBE…EVER. Does none of us any good to deny their existence or believe they'll change with the right convincing (some only understand violence and I don't go there).
    Not necessarily. I think people do like change, but only if it helps them. Even the right, absolutely loves change. But only to reflect their political ends. Do you think any conservative would complain if we criminalized labor unions? Or ended environmental regulations? This is a form of change, even if it is regressive. Restoring a previous state of affairs. I think a briefcase filled with a million dollars would be very well received across the political spectrum.

    All we need to do is cross the political divide and make people realize that this vision is universally favorable. Of course this isn't going to happen if people are already happy. People don't seriously consider revolution when they have a steady job and a family to support.

    However, I don't believe such resistance will make the vision hopeless by any means. A RBE as described by TZM will take generations, if not centuries to 'fully' implement globally…so I take a LONG VIEW…. My concern? Is there enough time remaining to make the efforts today, honorable as they are, matter for tomorrow?
    Probably not. Doesn't mean it isn't worth trying.
    Ernest likes this.
    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. " --Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcV View Post
    Hello forum land,

    I had a long discussion with a couple of guys who were against an RBE last night and they posed some questions that slightly stumped me so I thought I'd give a shout out here and see what you guys and gals think.

    The idea of a beach front property or an apartment with a perfect view of a sunset was presented as scarce, and it does not matter if all the basic needs are taken care of in a population, there will still be greed pertaining to these assets. what would stop someone in an RBE from building a new house in front of their neighbors to take advantage of the view of the sunset or access to the beach.
    And on the flip side, what would incentivize the people already staying in the house to give it up for others who wanted to have this privilege?
    Cuz, buy the time a steady state RBE Utopia arrives everyone will understand that the waterfront is not a parcel of property belonging to an individual or corporation, but a resource to be sustained and maintained. If this LifeBoat sinks I'm not the only one who is gonna hav'ta swim.
    For myself it's the perspective, Bank of Canada, Beach Houses and Teddy Bears, are things to Nations, Corporations or Individuals and hoard'n will end up capsize'n our LifeBoat.
    Everything is in transition now, the key is communication. This LifeBoat is still floating, but it is taken on water and we still have to figure out how to row in the same direction.

    Least we sent out a message in a bottle.



    It's not about things, it's about staying afloat till someone finds the bottle and answers the message.


    The twin Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft are exploring where nothing from Earth has flown before. Continuing on their more-than-35-year journey since their 1977 launches, they each are much farther away from Earth and the sun than Pluto. In August 2012, Voyager 1 made the historic entry into interstellar space, the region between stars, filled with material ejected by the death of nearby stars millions of years ago. Scientists hope to learn more about this region when Voyager 2, in the “heliosheath" -- the outermost later of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar medium -- also reaches interstellar space. Both spacecraft are still sending scientific information about their surroundings through the Deep Space Network, or DSN.



    The primary mission was the exploration of Jupiter and Saturn. After making a string of discoveries there -- such as active volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io and intricacies of Saturn's rings -- the mission was extended. Voyager 2 went on to explore Uranus and Neptune, and is still the only spacecraft to have visited those outer planets. The adventurers' current mission, the Voyager Interstellar Mission (VIM), will explore the outermost edge of the Sun's domain. And beyond.
    Last edited by RhythmAnarchy; 04-23-2014 at 06:18 PM.
    Ernest likes this.
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    Ozy; I must have missed the part about the 'briefcase filled with a million dollars' in TZM. Where will that money come from? Who is the benefactor? Who is the recipient? Am I wrong in that I thought TZM would be a MONEY FREE society? Now I'm confused….again….

    Of course its worth trying (never said it wasn't)….IMHO it is the 'lost causes' that are the only causes worth fighting for….I've got the scars, bruises and bumps to show for it.

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