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Thread: "Jacque Fresco about Marx and Communism" - YouTube

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    "Jacque Fresco about Marx and Communism" - YouTube

    TZM started off as the activist branch of TVP. This clip of an interview of Jacque and Roxanne makes it perfectly clear that socialism is not a related organization. Socialism is actually the ideology that TZM & TVP are opposed to, more than anything else. Anything on this forum that advocates socialism would thus be spam.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    TZM started off as the activist branch of TVP. This clip of an interview of Jacque and Roxanne makes it perfectly clear that socialism is not a related organization. Socialism is actually the ideology that TZM & TVP are opposed to, more than anything else. Anything on this forum that advocates socialism would thus be spam.

    If JF did indeed read Marx going by what he say's in the vid he mostly certainly failed to understand his methodology. I strongly suspect that JF associated with the bolsheviks who promoted state capitalism as their version of socialism. Once this excuse unravelled state capitalism had passed its sell by date as an ideology.

    I doubt that JF would describe an advocate of socialism/communism as a spammer. If this was the case all advocacy is by default spamming.
    droneBEE and HAL9000 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    TZM started off as the activist branch of TVP.
    Attending the latest Zday event on the weekend this position is so far removed from activists and organisers minds that I think I heard the VP mentioned once or twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    This clip of an interview of Jacque and Roxanne makes it perfectly clear that socialism is not a related organization.
    Socialism is not an organisation, but lets reflect on what was said. Essentially the clip was addressing any ideology followed in todays modern world hence the reference to the advanced technology we have today. However this article does see Marx in a different light showing him as the best scientist of them all with a quote in the article stating,

    “Their provisional (and constantly updated) ranking of nearly 35,000 researchers relies on queries made through Google Scholar to normalize the popular metric known as the h-index (a scientist with an h-index of 20 has published at least 20 papers with at least 20 citations each, so the measure takes into account quantity and popularity of research). It found that as of 5 November, the most influential scholar was Karl Marx in history.”

    The article is a good read which I highly recommend!


    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Socialism is actually the ideology that TZM & TVP are opposed to, more than anything else.
    This is just your interpretation of how things are and really should be stated as that!! or show the source to prove this. Socialism is more so an emergent train of thought or collection of theories as opposed to any ridged philosophy. It is linked to the social sciences much like libertarianism is linked to marketing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Anything on this forum that advocates socialism would thus be spam.
    Your ideology is flawed and seems panic driven. Socialism contains theories. The best way on this forum, I think anyway, would be to address the theory within socialism and back your argument up using the scientific method.
    Last edited by Spinout; 03-28-2017 at 06:23 PM.
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    >>>Anything on this forum that advocates socialism would thus be spam.

    What about anything that advocates libertarianism would it be Spam too?
    because with all due respect more than half of your posts are advocating libertarianism in one form or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    TZM started off as the activist branch of TVP. This clip of an interview of Jacque and Roxanne makes it perfectly clear that socialism is not a related organization.
    Doesn't TZM desire egalitarianism? Isn't egalitarianism more of a left wing concept? Isn't there a difference between trying to make people equal versus giving people equal opportunities? Wouldn't you still have a situation where people aren't equal even if they are given equal opportunities? Wouldn't you still have a situation where there will always be people at the top and people at the bottom because of hierarchy?

    Take for instance jobs where you have "superiors" you need to report to such as "obeying orders in the military," etc.

    Socialism is actually the ideology that TZM & TVP are opposed to, more than anything else.
    That's interesting that you say that because I believe people on the right wing end of the political spectrum and yes even some libertarians might not really see a difference between socialism, communism, liberalism, and globalism. Take for example Bernie Sanders. People on the Left would say he's a socialist but people on the Right would say he's a communist.

    Anything on this forum that advocates socialism would thus be spam.

    What about the following thing you said Neil:

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    that's what free-market capitalism does way better than socialism (or state capitalism).
    Would the above be considered spam?

    Seriously, between Neil, SophicDrippins, and myself, I don't know who's considered the worst whatever or however you want to define the word "worst."

    Am I the next person to ask Neil the same question others here have asked which is "What happened to you Neil?"
    Last edited by serenesam; 03-30-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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    "Change is almost always negative. Things degenerate." - Woody Allen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    If JF did indeed read Marx going by what he say's in the vid he mostly certainly failed to understand his methodology. I strongly suspect that JF associated with the bolsheviks who promoted state capitalism as their version of socialism. Once this excuse unravelled state capitalism had passed its sell by date as an ideology.

    I doubt that JF would describe an advocate of socialism/communism as a spammer. If this was the case all advocacy is by default spamming.
    State capitalism, or central planning, is the economic system of socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    Attending the latest Zday event on the weekend this position is so far removed from activists and organisers minds that I think I heard the VP mentioned once or twice.
    TZM's origins as the activist branch of TVP makes for a bond between the two groups that lasts forever, even though the two groups no longer have formal ties with each other, anymore. A mention alone of TVP, even once, at a TZM event would indicate the opposite of being so far removed, in such a manner as you describe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    Socialism is not an organisation,
    You're contradicting yourself by saying this, because you're the one who created more than one thread about socialism in the "related organizations" section of this forum.

    If you're talking semantics, it is acceptable to refer to socialism as an organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    but lets reflect on what was said. Essentially the clip was addressing any ideology followed in todays modern world hence the reference to the advanced technology we have today. However this article does see Marx in a different light showing him as the best scientist of them all with a quote in the article stating,

    “Their provisional (and constantly updated) ranking of nearly 35,000 researchers relies on queries made through Google Scholar to normalize the popular metric known as the h-index (a scientist with an h-index of 20 has published at least 20 papers with at least 20 citations each, so the measure takes into account quantity and popularity of research). It found that as of 5 November, the most influential scholar was Karl Marx in history.”

    The article is a good read which I highly recommend!
    The purpose of this thread is to point out that TVP, as a related organization, considers socialism to be an unrelated organization.

    I'm not here on this forum to explore Marx or socialism as though I'm interested in becoming a follower os subscriber.

    I might examine the works of Marx in detail some other time, as someone generically interested in studying history, but my intentions are to study the works of Von Mises, Milton Friedman, the founding fathers of the American Revolution, and other great thinkers and defenders of liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    This is just your interpretation of how things are and really should be stated as that!! or show the source to prove this.
    I'll refer you back to the OP video I posted for this, and I agree with JF's assessment of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    Socialism is more so an emergent train of thought or collection of theories as opposed to any ridged philosophy.
    Socialism is a bunch of tenets that when implemented doesn't turn out as promised & advertised. Sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news, but that's what history has shown us repeatedly about socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    It is linked to the social sciences much like libertarianism is linked to marketing.
    Well, libertarianism doesn't really have anything to do with marketing. Libertarian tenets don't require or even care whether markets to exist or not; if the market system does exist, libertarians are essentially opposed to state intervention in marketing/trade/capitalism other than to act as a referee to do things such as resolve contract disputes. That's merely about the application of liberty, not an inherent characteristic of a libertarian society; so I'm not sure how that would help to explain the link between socialism and any social sciences (other than to indicate that there isn't any, or something liket that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    Your ideology is flawed and seems panic driven.
    Close - it's more like concern driven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    Socialism contains theories.
    Science contains theories; socialism contains tenets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    The best way on this forum, I think anyway, would be to address the theory within socialism and back your argument up using the scientific method.
    That's what this movement does, except it doesn't do it within socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    >>>Anything on this forum that advocates socialism would thus be spam.

    What about anything that advocates libertarianism would it be Spam too?
    I don't think so; socialism and libertarianism are very different and distinct from each other.

    Libertarianism and what TZM & TVP advocate are essentially the same thing, or very similar. There are differences but, very little - if any - regarding philosophies or principles; the differences may have more to do with where the focus is. Because of this they appear to be unrelated.

    The conventional libertarian is mainly concerned with the conditions or situation for the present or immediate future, and the present-day situation where the scarcity problem is a given and source of problems such as war, crime, poverty, pollution, corruption, etc., whereas the post-scarcity society advocate is more interested with doing away with the scarcity problem and the baggage that comes with it in the more distant future.

    Other than that, I see no significant differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    because with all due respect more than half of your posts are advocating libertarianism in one form or another.
    That's fine. I don't know if it amounts to half - maybe more, lately, but I consider it necessary in order to examine the bigger picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Doesn't TZM desire egalitarianism? Isn't egalitarianism more of a left wing concept?
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by egalitarianism, but I don't consider TZM to be anywhere near left wing. Left wing advocates things like bigger government, use of force to impose many bans/restrictions/mandates; TZM is for eventually doing away with the state (meaning no government), and is opposed to any use of force to force anyone to do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Isn't there a difference between trying to make people equal versus giving people equal opportunities? Wouldn't you still have a situation where people aren't equal even if they are given equal opportunities? Wouldn't you still have a situation where there will always be people at the top and people at the bottom because of hierarchy?

    Take for instance jobs where you have "superiors" you need to report to such as "obeying orders in the military," etc.
    You'll have to be a little more specific about that, and it's not clear to me how this is relevant to this thread, either; I'm only interested in pointing out that given what Jacque Fresco, as the founder of TVP, which is the organization that started off TZM as its activist branch, considers TVP (thus by association, TZM) to be something different from socialism. I'm not really interested in exploring Marx, socialism, communism, etc. right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    That's interesting that you say that because I believe people on the right wing end of the political spectrum and yes even some libertarians might not really see a difference between socialism, communism, liberalism, and globalism. Take for example Bernie Sanders. People on the Left would say he's a socialist but people on the Right would say he's a communist.
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    What about the following thing you said Neil:



    Would the above be considered spam?
    Nope; that's from an entirely different thread with an entirely different topic. It's relevant to the discussion there, so I don't see how it's spam.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Seriously, between Neil, SophicDrippins, and myself, I don't know who's considered the worst whatever or however you want to define the word "worst."
    LOL What the heck are you talking about? Worst in what respect?

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Am I the next person to ask Neil the same question others here have asked which is "What happened to you Neil?"
    I created this thread about a related organization, specifically the one that started TZM as its activist branch, and you're coming up with this? I'm perplexed, but amused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by egalitarianism, but I don't consider TZM to be anywhere near left wing. Left wing advocates things like bigger government, use of force to impose many bans/restrictions/mandates; TZM is for eventually doing away with the state (meaning no government), and is opposed to any use of force to force anyone to do anything.
    Sounds like anarchism. But Neil, I thought you were a libertarian?

    In any case, some form of government is a necessity.....it's absurd to think people can govern themselves and still have a thriving society.....now, I know some people would bring up about the notion of science and the scientific method, but is that a fallacy? It's logically impossible to replicate a scientific experiment (one that is as grand as TZM/TVP/RBE) that is 100% exact. Small-scale experiments may say something, but it doesn't say everything.
    "Change is almost always negative. Things degenerate." - Woody Allen

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