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Thread: "Jacque Fresco about Marx and Communism" - YouTube

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by egalitarianism, but I don't consider TZM to be anywhere near left wing. Left wing advocates things like bigger government, use of force to impose many bans/restrictions/mandates; TZM is for eventually doing away with the state (meaning no government), and is opposed to any use of force to force anyone to do anything.
    So does that include not wanting to do anything?
    "Change is almost always negative. Things degenerate." - Woody Allen

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Sounds like anarchism.
    That's because it is - how perceptive of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    But Neil, I thought you were a libertarian?
    Yes, I am a libertarian. What's wrong with that? Why do you seem to be confused?

    Anarchism is the ultimate in libertarianism. Libertarianism is about having no more government than necessary, and anarchism is about having no government at all. Having no government at all always meets the libertarian "no more government than necessary" criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    In any case, some form of government is a necessity.....it's absurd to think people can govern themselves and still have a thriving society.....now, I know some people would bring up about the notion of science and the scientific method, but is that a fallacy? It's logically impossible to replicate a scientific experiment (one that is as grand as TZM/TVP/RBE) that is 100% exact. Small-scale experiments may say something, but it doesn't say everything.
    Some form of government is a necessity, but that's today. Someday, when there's no longer scarcity, because automation, robotics and other implementations of advancements in technology produce everything we want, which also means there's no longer a need for manual labor and many other forms of human work. The need for capitalism will be gone. Until then, we will continue to have problems with war, crime, pollution, homelessness, corruption, etc., and we will continue to have manual labor and other forms of work that do require hierarchies and some form of government. When scarcity is gone, there will no longer be a need for any hierarchies or some form of government.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    So does that include not wanting to do anything?
    Yes, of course! That's the most importation thing. Who wants to go to work a job every day they don't like to do? Who wants to pay for repairing damage to their vehicle? Who wants to pay taxes? Who wants to get kicked out of their home because they can't afford to pay their rent? Who wants to starve to death? Who wants to go to war to defend their country from an invasion? I could go on and on and on and on, like this; these are things people will no longer have to do if the technological infrastructure allows us that luxury.

    I'm not asking for some individual who makes the exception to the rule; that's not the point. I, myself, for example, don't mind paying my taxes, because we need government; that's today though. In a post scarcity society, I'm not going to want to pay taxes because I don't need to; the point is that there will be no state there that collects taxes, and there's no money anymore because it's obsolete, so there won't even be a way to pay taxes, anymore. Such a thing will no longer exist other than an obsolete concept.

    Same with the person who needs their vehicle repaired so they can go to work, or school, or to the grocery store, or vacation trip, or to visit their friends/family/etc. Today we have hobbyists and people who like to participate in renaissance festivals; in a post scarcity future, the hobbyists and participants in renaissance festival - like events will be those who do those things for the fun, entertainment, and historical appreciation of the things that we need to do today. Today's renaissance fair has the blacksmith; tomorrow's renaissance fair - like events will have auto mechanics.

    I suppose in the future, even though there will no longer be any wars, there will continue to be war re-enactments, maybe at the renaissance fair - like events.

  4. #14
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    Spinout Quote: Socialism is not an organisation
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    You're contradicting yourself by saying this, because you're the one who created more than one thread about socialism in the "related organizations" section of this forum.
    This is why it is frustrating reading your replies because you don't get it. The objective of this section is to discuss other organisations yet you want to talk about your views of socialism.

    The threads I have started in this section both relate to THE WORLD SOCIALISM MOVEMENT. Click on the link and see what I mean about being an ORGANISATION!!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    This is why it is frustrating reading your replies because you don't get it. The objective of this section is to discuss other organisations yet you want to talk about your views of socialism.

    The threads I have started in this section both relate to THE WORLD SOCIALISM MOVEMENT. Click on the link and see what I mean about being an ORGANISATION!!

    Personally, I believe everyone posting on this thread 'has been' addressing and offering opinions/interpretations of the WSM, and that Spinout simply wants to 'control' the direction and intent of the conversation....which will only be an 'up-hill' climb, because we all see/experience the world differently .....and Besides....there's way too many boneheaded 'assumptions' floating around as it relates to so-called socialism....

    Our cultural 'indoctrination' takes over whenever we 'try' to discuss the subject, which clouds over any kernels of TRUTH....

    Hey Spinout; Take a survey on how many of those posting have actually bothered to READ the WSM Manifest....I'll bet its less than half .....just like TZM Defined.....:roll eyes:

    Seems to me, most people prefer to 'think' or ASSume they know something (everything), rather than simply doing the hard work of discovering a truth for themselves, which minimally requires an OPENNESS in our minds....

    "Some folks don't know what they don't know until they do know"
    Last edited by droneBEE; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:41 AM.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Personally, I believe everyone posting on this thread 'has been' addressing and offering opinions/interpretations of the WSM, and that Spinout simply wants to 'control' the direction and intent of the conversation....which will only be an 'up-hill' climb, because we all see/experience the world differently .....and Besides....there's way too many boneheaded 'assumptions' floating around as it relates to so-called socialism....

    Our cultural 'indoctrination' takes over whenever we 'try' to discuss the subject, which clouds over any kernels of TRUTH....

    Hey Spinout; Take a survey on how many of those posting have actually bothered to READ the WSM Manifest....I'll bet its less than half .....just like TZM Defined.....:roll eyes:

    Seems to me, most people prefer to 'think' or ASSume they know something (everything), rather than simply doing the hard work of discovering a truth for themselves, which minimally requires an OPENNESS in our minds....

    "Some folks don't know what they don't know until they do know"
    Well you could say i'm trying to control things in a way that the scientific method requires. I'm beginning to think there are shills amongst us, which is ok in that the truth will prevail.
    I also would assume that many would access the links but the contradictions to their world views or as you put it indoctrination, would be too much, reflecting what is written in TZM defined essays (Mind Lock p. 26-27).

    Hey your last quote reminds me of the saying by Noam Chomsky, "the problem's not that we don't know, it's that we don't know we don't know!!
    It also remind me of this great lecture by Schindler who opens this lecture with lots of these.

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Anarchism is the ultimate in libertarianism. Libertarianism is about having no more government than necessary, and anarchism is about having no government at all. Having no government at all always meets the libertarian "no more government than necessary" criteria.

    Some form of government is a necessity, but that's today. Someday, when there's no longer scarcity, because automation, robotics and other implementations of advancements in technology produce everything we want, which also means there's no longer a need for manual labor and many other forms of human work. The need for capitalism will be gone. Until then, we will continue to have problems with war, crime, pollution, homelessness, corruption, etc., and we will continue to have manual labor and other forms of work that do require hierarchies and some form of government. When scarcity is gone, there will no longer be a need for any hierarchies or some form of government.



    Yes, and when there will no longer be a need for any hierarchies is the time period where humanity begins to die. As Aristotle once said "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society."
    "Change is almost always negative. Things degenerate." - Woody Allen

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    I suppose in the future, even though there will no longer be any wars, there will continue to be war re-enactments, maybe at the renaissance fair - like events.
    What makes you think there won't be any wars in the future? What makes you think nationalists especially Non-White Nationalists will give up their nationalism, identity, and cultural pride?
    "Change is almost always negative. Things degenerate." - Woody Allen

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinout View Post
    This is why it is frustrating reading your replies because you don't get it. The objective of this section is to discuss other organisations yet you want to talk about your views of socialism.

    The threads I have started in this section both relate to THE WORLD SOCIALISM MOVEMENT. Click on the link and see what I mean about being an ORGANISATION!!
    I think we're quibbling over semantics, so I don't see the point in carrying this discussion any further.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Yes, and when there will no longer be a need for any hierarchies is the time period where humanity begins to die. As Aristotle once said "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society."
    Ok, and a new society with a new kind of humanity will come about. Apathy will be a luxury we'll be able to afford without the adverse effects. The need or desire for tolerance will become an obsolete matter, because people will no longer be in situations where they need someone else to cut them a lot of slack.

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