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Thread: Socialism defined by the World Socialist Movement

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    I agree about resources but not so much about democracy. as i understand it the agenda of TZM is to do away with democracy.
    Yeah I agree. For some minor decision making that wont have serious implications on a Great scale, I think we can have a well-informed public to decide what happens but for all of those really Crucial decisions, the Scientific method is what we Need. So really the biggest decision we can make Democratically is to make Science thee number 1 priority in what we use in our decision making process.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    Its what i'm saying... lets first implement automation.

    By implementing automation FIRST....people will, and already are suffering as we figure out How to provide a living income for those left behind.....

    A Basic Income must be first in order to lessen the suffering from the transition to automation IMO... Failing in that effort will cause much misery, continued GREED/hoarding and increased fighting while we RE-learn how to SHARE equally...
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post

    A Basic Income must be first in order to lessen the suffering from the transition to automation IMO... Failing in that effort will cause much misery, continued GREED/hoarding and increased fighting while we RE-learn how to SHARE equally...
    I must respectfully disagree.
    Basic income is the result of automation, not the other way around. without automation we would've never talked about universal basic income in the first place.

    Society changes only in reaction to technological innovation.
    look at the agricultural revolution for example - first people invented a technology called domestication of plants and animals. only after that they change the society and stopped being nomads.

    Its always like that, we can't change society by talking to people, condemning people etc... only by inventing new technologies. new policies are always a reaction to new technologies.
    If we want UBI (personally i do) we need to automate more stuff and then it will follow naturally.

    This why i came to the conclusion that inventing new tech is the only way to change society and its what i'm doing every day .
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  4. #64
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    > If we want UBI (personally i do) we need to automate more stuff and then it will follow naturally.

    Well put, and I like the logic.

    How will we recognise the time (Level of automation.) when we have automated stuff enough to implement UBI ?

    I notice where I am, there is practically no automation at all !


    So we are going to have to weather the unemployment storm until that day comes, well, that is handy to know in advance !

    And there was me thinking we could implement UBI today !


    Perhaps unemployment statistics might give an indication ?
    (Eg. when there is 50% unemployment, we have reached enough level of automation.)

    Maybe that explains why there is no unemployment where I am, because there is no automation !
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouTuber View Post
    > If we want UBI (personally i do) we need to automate more stuff and then it will follow naturally.

    Well put, and I like the logic.

    How will we recognise the time (Level of automation.) when we have automated stuff enough to implement UBI ?

    I notice where I am, there is practically no automation at all !


    So we are going to have to weather the unemployment storm until that day comes, well, that is handy to know in advance !

    And there was me thinking we could implement UBI today !


    Perhaps unemployment statistics might give an indication ?
    (Eg. when there is 50% unemployment, we have reached enough level of automation.)

    Maybe that explains why there is no unemployment where I am, because there is no automation !
    So...in the meantime we simply allow the bottom feeders to continue down the path of destruction (AKA Today's profits for the Top Elite) and 'hope and prey' technology will somehow step up and save us before we go too far to turn it all around?

    While we can certainly all agree that "Science is the only religion worthy of faith" .....placing so much faith in science alone, while the 'theft of our common wealth' is steadily usurped and continues unabated for the benefit of a relative few KINGS/LANDLORDS...

    While the World Burns and Ice Caps melt, and all around us the people, DESPIE THE SCIENCE, ignore the flames surrounding/engulfing them/us.....as they head to the Mall or have their heads glued to some device, designed to enhance consumerism and commerce......so that the wealthy can live in leisure another day....
    Last edited by droneBEE; 03-20-2017 at 06:06 AM.

  6. #66
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    I agree that more Automation would naturally bring in some form of a UBI but Society is definitely ready for it now. So the question I'm asking is how would a UBI implemented today affect the progress of Automation? Would it speed it up or might it slow it down? Because I think we can all agree that the faster we develop Automation, the better our Future would look for a smoother Transition.
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  7. #67
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    I found this interesting regarding the Malthusian perspective in that, populations will come to some kind of equilibrium in their social structures through the influence of ecological systems. Or in other words, the relationship between economy and ecology is the ultimate decider of outcomes in all societies.

    Many societies in the past - in sixteenth century England or fourth century Rome — have believed that their societies had outgrown their resources. In truth they had merely come against the limitations of their agricultural techniques - or, more accurately, against the limitations of the policies that those techniques subserved. To some extent the present world situation is similar. We have not exceeded physical capacity but have merely begun to expose the flaws in policies not designed to feed all the people.
    The above quote is taken from the WSM site, which reflects it understands the same problems that TZM does. Below is an outlook taken from TZM defined p.163.

    My understanding of the perspective below is it's saying that social policy or the will of the people if you will, needs to change before any outgrowth takes place in a society.


    System Limitation
    When it comes to cultural philosophies, the human population must gain, in part, a clear understanding of its limitations and derive its expectations and values from this physical reality. The limitations imposed by our environment exist irrespective of human values, interests, wants or even needs in abstraction. If we were to remove humanity from planet Earth and observe the Earth's natural ecological operations with the causal, scientific understandings we have today, we would witness a synergistic/symbiotic system governed by the universal dynamics of nature.
    The key point here is to go beyond the Malthusian train of thought and look at ways of educating people to the limitations of the ecosystem. I think TZM members should be doing this in a way that points out solutions to these problems but also highlights the advantages in using advancements in technology and technological know how.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    I agree that more Automation would naturally bring in some form of a UBI but Society is definitely ready for it now. So the question I'm asking is how would a UBI implemented today affect the progress of Automation? Would it speed it up or might it slow it down? Because I think we can all agree that the faster we develop Automation, the better our Future would look for a smoother Transition.
    Just think of the things, the ideas that humans could come up with if we were not bogged down in some JOB and worried about where we were going to live, whether we have accessible health care or how we were gonna put food on the table.... You know, a leisurely lifestyle with minor inconveniences ..Like the wealthy enjoy every day......
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  9. #69
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    To really get beyond Malthusian thinking and perhaps expose some of his flaws...along with gaining some insights on how some of his theories have been corrupted for the benefit of the already most fortunate members of society, check this out;

    Understanding Economics - Site Map

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    To really get beyond Malthusian thinking and perhaps expose some of his flaws...along with gaining some insights on how some of his theories have been corrupted for the benefit of the already most fortunate members of society, check this out;

    Understanding Economics - Site Map

    With all due respect posts like this have nothing to do with the the intent of this thread. I've been trying to bring it back to the topic of the thread but contributors are taking it off in the 'personal view' direction, more interested in what 'they' have to say than respecting the theme of the thread.

    That being said I would appreciate if members not post irrelevant links in this thread and refrain from posting in it if you are not contributing to its objective (read OP).

    Basically if a response to the OP has 'blue' written in the text, that doesn't give a reason to talk about the blue car your sister bought that runs on carbon free fuel which could only happen because she lives in a scandinavian country that has implemented a UBI, however her capitalist boyfriend who doesn't agree with all this, may or may not have dual citizenship in the US which, by the way, has a president named Trump.<<NOT RELEVANT!!

    Thanks in advance.

    OP

    Socialism defined by the World Socialist Movement


    This link is for those wanting to find out the definition of socialism and what being a socialist is about. In my view this is a credible source. I would also encourage discussion on which views are in line with TZM and which ones are not.


    What is Socialism? | World Socialist Movement
    Last edited by Spinout; 03-21-2017 at 09:04 PM.

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