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Thread: The Auravana Project

  1. #11
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    Come on neil, there is a difference between how people behave in order to survive and what their ideology is. i was talking strictly about his ideology which is not free market capitalism and you know it,

    Capitalism is imposed from above on all 7 billions people on earth, so essentially everyone is a capitalist today or else he would be dead. do you also think that peter joseph or karl marx are capitalists????
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    Come on neil, there is a difference between how people behave in order to survive and what their ideology is.
    I didn't say there wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    i was talking strictly about his ideology which is not free market capitalism and you know it,
    But we're also talking about what I'm talking about & I said he was a practicing free-market capitalist. Is his ideology relevant to what I stated?

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    Capitalism is imposed from above on all 7 billions people on earth, so essentially everyone is a capitalist today or else he would be dead. do you also think that peter joseph or karl marx are capitalists????
    I'm not sure what you mean by "imposed from above", but essentially anyone who engages in trade or uses money is a capitalist. That's not a bad thing in itself; it's just the way thing are for society today for just about everyone.

    I would imagine that if PJ showed us what he has in his wallet we would find images of some dead presidents; I too have those in my wallet. PJ as someone with a day job is a capitalist; I as someone with a day job am a capitalist; I assume you also have a day job & use money (although I've never heard of AI receiving a paycheck or spending money), so that would also make you a capitalist.

    As far as Karl Marx is concerned, from what I understand he was more like a moocher. I'm not sure if a moocher technically qualifies as a capitalist.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post

    One thing I realized not too long ago (well, actually I don't think it was relatively recently, but I guess I put a little more focus on it - or something like that) is that Jacque Fresco is a practicing free-market capitalist himself.
    So you just realized he uses money???? . well bro you're a genius.
    So is everybody else here and the entire world. what's your point?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    So you just realized he uses money???? . well bro you're a genius.
    So is everybody else here and the entire world. what's your point?
    Again, I stated that he's a practicing free-market capitalist. That's a little different from saying "uses money", because barter can be free-market capitalism and that doesn't involve the use of money.

    Anyways - in some of the posts in this thread, such as #3 by Ernest & #4 by droneBEE, they're talking about TVP's/Fresco's actions hurting the cause & lowering themselves. My point is basically something to the effect that it shouldn't really be a surprise that they're doing things that appear to be hurting the cause or lowering themselves - that this is not something that's really happening as though it's because Fresco changed. In other words, my point is that unlike what it seems to some of the posts on this thread, it's actually just par for the course.

  5. #15
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    Hey, lets keep this discussion going....some understanding/learning could eventually take place if we can take it to some form of conclusion....its been a good 'respectful' debate so far....and I can only applaud all those commenting....


    (Of course JF is a market capitalist, anyone selling something in order to get something else is one too)

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    Hello @auravana and good luck with your project.
    i do have a question for you: in your website and videos you never mention the venus project or the zeitgeist movement as an inspiration. it struck me as very weird as your project is almost a complete replica of the venus project.
    one thing i noticed about peter joseph and jacque fresco is that they are always mentioning their inspiration and influences. for example jacque mentions Buckminster fuller, Bose, stuart chase, technocracy, hayakawa, and many many other people who influenced him.

    PEOPLE APPRECIATE ORIGINALITY AND AUTHENTICITY and this is why they appreciate jacque who combined many ideas and added some of his own to create his resource based economy system.

    so what i'm trying to ask is - what new idea did you came up with? and why not mention TVP and TZM as an influence?
    thanks....
    Greetings HAL9000 and everyone.
    Thank you for your questions.

    Have you browsed through our entire website. We do in fact mention The Venus Project [edited: and TZM] on the following pages:
    http://auravana.com/external-references
    http://auravana.com/similar-organizations
    http://auravana.com/timeline.html

    Our vision is different from The Venus Project, though we feel it is in exact accord with the vision of The Zeitgeist Movement. As mentioned on the website: "We started with the Social System, worked our way forward to the Decision System, then the Lifestyle System, and only after we had all this as a foundation did we arrive at the material layout of cities in community (i.e., a network of socio-economically integrated, primarily circular, city systems)." Also, we took our Social System and an offer to view the Decision System to Roxanne Meadows and she rejected it quite curtly. She said it was not The Venus Project and had nothing to do with The Venus Project. We had no option but to start another project.

    We also had an early version of the website where we had a webpage entitled "Collaborative Organizations". The Venus Project contacted us and told us to either change the name or remove the link to their website. At first, we removed the link to their website, but later we created the pages you see above. Additionally, as you can see from our in-depth specifications, we have had many influences, and they are appropriately cited in the specifications, where citation matters most. We are presently working on the material specification, and if you look at our other specifications I think you may change your mind that we are not honest and upfront.
    Last edited by auravana; 08-13-2016 at 08:07 AM.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    Fresco is as far from a free market capitalist as i am from an Eskimo... you are hallucinating
    If Fresco (or mostly, Roxanne) refuse to open source their work, then how far away are they from free market capitalists, or just our own values?
    Last edited by auravana; 08-13-2016 at 08:23 AM. Reason: grammar and content to reduce errors
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  8. #18
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    Hi @auravana and thank you for your reply.

    Let me first say that i am aware of your work for quite some time and have read most of your materials, including the specification system.
    By imitating TVP i was talking more about the pictures and designs of the cities, structures, vehicles, and machinery..... all are taken from Roxanne and Jacques's work, no?

    It would also be fair to say that most of you are former TVP members who had access to their materials and also designed their website(please correct me if i'm wrong). i don't see the point in taking designs and pictures of other people and claiming them as open source. as i understand, there was also the case of one of you creating videos against the venus project while working there.
    in any case, i disagree with TVP decision to file a claim, but i want to hear the other side of the story too before i make any judgment.

    about open source - i'm a big fan of open source in many cases but not in all cases. i use linux and apache and also contribute to open source. but you can't impose open source on other people.
    some people today use the buzz word "open source" as if its some kind of religion or a solution for everything. myself, i'm very happy with the core values of TVP, and kudos for Roxanne and Jacques for trying to preserve those core values and ideas. Jacques and Roxanne are open for change, but not at any price.

    TZM (as an example of open source ideas) always was, and still is a very confused movement comprising of: 9/11 conspiracy theorists, libertarians, meta-physicians, naturalists,philosophers, spiritual folks and other consciousness/quantum nonsense. we have everything here and you can browse previous posts for yourself for a proof.

    I think its great that we have this diversity here, but its also harming the movement in many ways. the movement is too broad to make any sense, there are only about 5-10 active members who post here in the forum, and i disagree with about 90% of the posts. the movement is dying overall.
    i'm happy that TVP is preserving its core values!!! . though obviously some slight modifications are always welcome, i'm definitely not a conservative.

    Now, as for auravana i think what you're doing is great. my advice to you though, is to create you own models of the cities, vehicles, buildings etc... and then there is no problem at all . the specification system is original work so nobody can sue you for that.

    after browsing your specification system (its too long to read in full) i can honestly say that your direction is not my style, and i can see why Roxanne refused to include it in the venus project website.

    but diversity is what's great about our species and each individual see the world through different lenses. we can have many organizations working simultaneously all over the world, so long as they respect each other and not copy/paste pictures , designs and other materials.

    P.S - Jacques is definitely not a capitalist, and you know it. he was talking about a moneyless system, collaborating and sharing ideas already in the 70's before the buzz term was invented. the thing is , you can't collaborate on open source projects with people you fundamentally disagree with. building a new society is not computer code.

    Jacques is an engineer/scientist and i assume(though i might be wrong) that you guys aren't, and here lies the conflict. its the same conflict he had with peter Joseph.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    Hi @auravana and thank you for your reply.

    Let me first say that i am aware of your work for quite some time and have read most of your materials, including the specification system.
    By imitating TVP i was talking more about the pictures and designs of the cities, structures, vehicles, and machinery..... all are taken from Roxanne and Jacques's work, no?

    It would also be fair to say that most of you are former TVP members who had access to their materials and also designed their website(please correct me if i'm wrong). i don't see the point in taking designs and pictures of other people and claiming them as open source. as i understand, there was also the case of one of you creating videos against the venus project while working there.
    in any case, i disagree with TVP decision to file a claim, but i want to hear the other side of the story too before i make any judgment.

    about open source - i'm a big fan of open source in many cases but not in all cases. i use linux and apache and also contribute to open source. but you can't impose open source on other people.
    some people today use the buzz word "open source" as if its some kind of religion or a solution for everything. myself, i'm very happy with the core values of TVP, and kudos for Roxanne and Jacques for trying to preserve those core values and ideas. Jacques and Roxanne are open for change, but not at any price.

    TZM (as an example of open source ideas) always was, and still is a very confused movement comprising of: 9/11 conspiracy theorists, libertarians, meta-physicians, naturalists,philosophers, spiritual folks and other consciousness/quantum nonsense. we have everything here and you can browse previous posts for yourself for a proof.

    I think its great that we have this diversity here, but its also harming the movement in many ways. the movement is too broad to make any sense, there are only about 5-10 active members who post here in the forum, and i disagree with about 90% of the posts. the movement is dying overall.
    i'm happy that TVP is preserving its core values!!! . though obviously some slight modifications are always welcome, i'm definitely not a conservative.

    Now, as for auravana i think what you're doing is great. my advice to you though, is to create you own models of the cities, vehicles, buildings etc... and then there is no problem at all . the specification system is original work so nobody can sue you for that.

    after browsing your specification system (its too long to read in full) i can honestly say that your direction is not my style, and i can see why Roxanne refused to include it in the venus project website.

    but diversity is what's great about our species and each individual see the world through different lenses. we can have many organizations working simultaneously all over the world, so long as they respect each other and not copy/paste pictures , designs and other materials.

    P.S - Jacques is definitely not a capitalist, and you know it. he was talking about a moneyless system, collaborating and sharing ideas already in the 70's before the buzz term was invented. the thing is , you can't collaborate on open source projects with people you fundamentally disagree with. building a new society is not computer code.

    Jacques is an engineer/scientist and i assume(though i might be wrong) that you guys aren't, and here lies the conflict. its the same conflict he had with peter Joseph.

    Greetings HAL9000,

    What I think is harming the movement more than anyone is the dead-zone of innovation being created by organizations that purport to support our vision, but are not open sourcing their work, not allowing others to remix and modify, and censoring others. And, organizations that are strictly non-cooperative with others. The nasty split that TVP corporation initiated did more to harm to our direction than anything else. In concern to myself, I have never been a member of TVP. Neither, to my knowledge has Farid. Nothing we have posted has been the direct work of TVP (to my knowledge). We spent a lot, and I mean a lot, of time and effort creating the images we have created. And, Steven black, to my knowledge never got to see anything that was special and wasn't public.

    Would you be happy if we removed everything that even resembled TVP work from the website, essentially censoring our very hard and creative work? This is something I am considering doing, but it is a slippery slope. When does the censoring end? Does it end with the idea of an integrated circular city in general? When we publish the Material Specification for the integrated city system, will they censor that. This specification is something we are working on right now. Will they not want that seen, even though, when complete, it will be the most comprehensive explanation of the materialization of community as an integrated network of circular city systems there is. I don't have an answer msyelf. But an organization that says it wants to create an open source society through a solely closed source effort is not acting logically, and hence, is acting irrationally. When individuals behave irrationally, you never know what they are going to do.

    You have a lot of posts on here, and so, if that is what you think I should do (remove everything that resembles TVP work...now and into the future), including all the work that went into creating all of these open and public domain images, then maybe I will: https://www.flickr.com/photos/94981372@N00/
    Some of the nicer looking images here are renders, but the rest are actually from within a gaming engine...prior to DX12...so they don't look as nice as the renders.

    I just don't think that is the right approach. And, I don't think that is standing up for my values or the values of TZM. But, if this community wants us to take them down, then maybe I should erase them from the internet. It is rare to come upon people who have read the specifications on auravana, and those who have, and who understand what is said, I tend to respect what they say.

    The messages that I get from people high up the hierarchy at TVP are somewhat frightening. They say things like:
    As a direct response to, what do you think about censorship: "We have to do that, because of cheep copies of TVP's proposal, to avoid desinformation."
    Or they act like disciples: "We have to do the same thing that Rox did working with Jacque, she improve the proposal filling the gaps, no start a movement all over again."

    As we say on the website an in the specifications sometimes dissonance leads to resonance and positive change.
    You have been around long enough and I assume have been close enough to TVP to see how they have sucked peoples energies dry and then discarded them as if they never cared about them. I have certainly seen that, even though I have never chosen to participate in TVP. You are probably familiar with the many resignations. Having known people who were close to TVP corporation's/activist leadership, I don't think they have the same values you think they have. And, Steven has asked them many times what their values are and to define them and they (TVP corporate leadership) has always just blown him off.

    Yes, of course I know that Jacque is not a capitalist. What I was sort of getting at is that he created TVP when the idea of open source didn't even exist in the public's mind. It didn't become a "thing", really, in the public's mind until the 2000s. By that time Jacque would have been entirely fixed in his ways. If he was young now, and in his prime, I think the organization would be open source. But, as people age, change becomes hard and they tend to become more and more rigid, which can be damaging to themselves and those around them. It is Jacque's rigidity and the disciple nature of the organization that Roxanne has created around herself that is most damaging (which, is only my opinion).
    Last edited by auravana; 08-13-2016 at 11:16 AM. Reason: grammar
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  10. #20
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    I showed that Jacque Fresco practices free-market capitalism & that makes him a capitalist. You cannot just say that he's not a capitalist, after I just showed that he is, without being absurd.

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