Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 34
Like Tree27Likes

Thread: Story of The Free Market - Flawed

  1. #1
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    7

    Story of The Free Market - Flawed

    Hi guys, this is my first post here so I want to post a video excerpt from Peter Joseph's new book - The New Human Rights Movement in which he described what he believes to be the free market.

    Check it out: https://youtu.be/gorSUDnX1qk

    So I was very disappointed in Peter Joseph after watching this, if indeed it is content included in his new book, because he deliberately misrespresented what Capitalism is to be in a better position to present his own views. He didn't need to lie about the Free Market, this just makes me think he only wants followers and isn't interested in serious change and debate like he says he is.

    To explain what's wrong with the story in the video. The moment the government got involved it ceased to be a free market and everything described afterwards was crony capitalism.

    In a free market, a new apple store would emerge that has a higher standard on the quality of apples they sell, in addition to that, John and the other stores would get a bad reputation and lose customers to this new competitor, either forcing them to increase their standards or lose their business.

    However, there is a chance the new store would lose quality because of increasing demand, so it would be impossible to keep selling high quality apples in high quanities, inevitably losing customers in the process aswell.

    This would create an equilibrium in the apple industry where no one can compete in terms of quality anymore, as such no one would be able to dominate like John did in this video.
    Neil likes this.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, Virginia
    Posts
    1,212
    Are you libertarian, or ancap?

  3. #3
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Are you libertarian, or ancap?
    I don't label myself. I'm just a guy looking for the truth and nothing more.
    Neil and droneBEE like this.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, Virginia
    Posts
    1,212
    Quote Originally Posted by Hisoka View Post
    I don't label myself. I'm just a guy looking for the truth and nothing more.
    Ok, that's cool; I can respect that - but in that case, what does the truth tell you about the possibility of the existence of capitalism without the existence of the state? In other words, can we have capitalism without the state? If so, how? Is there one example of it that exists or evidence that such a thing has ever existed? If you want to hold off responding to this until I provide you with definitions for state & capitalism, that's fine; I'll try to describe or explain what I mean by those terms.

    BTW - welcome to the forum!

    When and how did you first learn about TZM?

  5. #5
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Ok, that's cool; I can respect that - but in that case, what does the truth tell you about the possibility of the existence of capitalism without the existence of the state? In other words, can we have capitalism without the state? If so, how? Is there one example of it that exists or evidence that such a thing has ever existed? If you want to hold off responding to this until I provide you with definitions for state & capitalism, that's fine; I'll try to describe or explain what I mean by those terms.

    BTW - welcome to the forum!

    When and how did you first learn about TZM?
    Thanks for the welcome, I first heard of TZM last year as a result of learning about the Venus Project and Resource Based Economy as I'm sure many others have.

    A quick google search brings up the definitions for both words. If you don't agree, tell me what you would define as "state" and "capitalism".

    state
    steɪt/
    noun

    "a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government."
    capitalism
    ˈkapɪt(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
    noun
    an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
    If you agree with both definitions then I will go ahead and put out the definition of Crony Capitalism

    crony capitalism

    an economic system characterized by close, mutually advantageous relationships between business leaders and government officials.
    To answer your question, it obviously can't exist or sustain itself without the state, it needs the state to protect private property rights through military, police and court, it also needs the state to protect the individual rights of every person.

    It's all a matter of degree, if the state however restricts competition between privately owned businesses in any way, then there is no longer a free market and that's when all the corruption takes place, why?

    Because humans are motivated by self interest, both the business man who would then bribe government officials or the official who creates policies that prevents anyone else from getting market share.
    Last edited by Hisoka; 05-11-2017 at 01:53 PM.
    Neil and droneBEE like this.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    825
    Quote Originally Posted by Hisoka View Post
    It's all a matter of degree, if the state however restricts competition between privately owned businesses in any way, then there is no longer a free market and that's when all the corruption takes place, why?

    Because humans are motivated by self interest, both the business man who would then bribe government officials or the official who creates policies that prevents anyone else from getting market share.
    I don't think there ever can be this thing called a "Free Market" in a Capitalist type system. States are run by People just like Business's are. There is just too much incentives, ideas, factors, agendas, components etc. that the State is involved with and this makes it impossible for it not to be imbedded in the Economy.

    To have some Ideal level/degree of involvement by the State where Everyone is satisfied..... I don't know? wishful much maybe

    I mean we are talking about a Competitive System where not everyone is going to win and those who do, can't get enough of it sooooooo ........
    droneBEE likes this.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, Virginia
    Posts
    1,212
    Not only do I agree with you, Hisoka (and at this point I don't think details about the definitions are important), but I think you may have a better understanding of this issue than I do. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much of this kind of presence, in the post scarcity advocacy movement, of individuals who see eye-to-eye with me on this issue (I've been starving to find folks who do); perhaps we could work together to fix this. I'd look forward to something like that, and to seeing more posts for your thoughts & ideas - as well as your responses to other posts! I think I'm glad you're here.

  8. #8
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Ok, that's cool; I can respect that - but in that case, what does the truth tell you about the possibility of the existence of capitalism without the existence of the state? In other words, can we have capitalism without the state? If so, how? Is there one example of it that exists or evidence that such a thing has ever existed? If you want to hold off responding to this until I provide you with definitions for state & capitalism, that's fine; I'll try to describe or explain what I mean by those terms.

    BTW - welcome to the forum!

    When and how did you first learn about TZM?

    This is something i deduced after reading TZM defined. its a somewhat different idea about governance in a market system than what was explained in the book.

    Book version synopsis: The Government and the Market are two separate entities, but because the firms within the Market system require further power consolidation; they must utilize the government to achieve it using means such as lobbying and so forth.

    My deduction: The economic system is always the primary governing entity in of itself. However, in order for firms to maintain stability and not destroy each-other, some governing framework has to be applied and thus government comes into existence.

    And i will use this analogy where Feudal Lords are Firms & Shogun is Government :

    The feudal lords of Japan own the lands and all of their utility, however as they expand their domain they must inevitably fight other feudal lords. Therefore a Shogun is created to rule over them and institute laws to prevent the fighting that is proving uneconomical to the feudal lords
    Neil likes this.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, Virginia
    Posts
    1,212
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    I don't think there ever can be this thing called a "Free Market" in a Capitalist type system. States are run by People just like Business's are. There is just too much incentives, ideas, factors, agendas, components etc. that the State is involved with and this makes it impossible for it not to be imbedded in the Economy.

    To have some Ideal level/degree of involvement by the State where Everyone is satisfied..... I don't know? wishful much maybe

    I mean we are talking about a Competitive System where not everyone is going to win and those who do, can't get enough of it sooooooo ........
    Yes, states are run just like businesses & just like a business, if it's not run right it will falter or fail. How a state is run is affected by its people, primarily as voters. If the voters make a bad decision in who they elect to run the government, it will have a negative effect on the state.

    There have been free markets & I think the problem is that voters either don't understand, don't care, or lose sight of the advantage it provides by allowing themselves to be overpowered by an emotional reaction called envy & politicians either take advantage of this or exploit people with it to win elections.

    Take for example the notion that wealth inequality is somehow a problem. It doesn't work like a see-saw where the access to & availability of goods/services/resources is always a fixed given and the state needs to intervene by coming in and using force to take that fixed given illusion, and redistribute it all so everyone has an equal share. When the state tries to intervene in the market, it causes prices to skyrocket (meaning access is reduced) and availability of goods/services/resources to drop. History has repeatedly shown this to us, whether it's the now defunct Soviet Union or something happening today, such as what's going on in Venezuela. I think this is the main reason Jacque Fresco points out things about politicians such as that they're not trained to solve problems & that the solution to society's problems are technical, not political.

    I think it's better to be able to make ends meet, have a roof over my head, food on my plate, higher standard of living, and better quality of life, if it means having to be someone at the bottom of the wealth spectrum working for someone at the top of the wealth spectrum (with 1000 times more wealth), than to not have those things because people wanted the state to force redistribution thinking they'd end up with more rather than less (for everyone). Redistribution is an unrealistic concept; resources dissipate because the momentum that's producing them gets reduced, for the same kind of reason that a car will slow down if it loses power.

  10. #10
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    I don't think there ever can be this thing called a "Free Market" in a Capitalist type system. States are run by People just like Business's are. There is just too much incentives, ideas, factors, agendas, components etc. that the State is involved with and this makes it impossible for it not to be imbedded in the Economy.

    To have some Ideal level/degree of involvement by the State where Everyone is satisfied..... I don't know? wishful much maybe

    I mean we are talking about a Competitive System where not everyone is going to win and those who do, can't get enough of it sooooooo ........
    Could you give me an example of what could incentivize the state to involve itself in matters between business owners? I would like to know what creates such a knee-jerk reaction, because when it happens, capitalism devolves from a game of "who is better at improving people's lives and bringing most value?" to "who is better at kissing ass?"

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
web statistics
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1