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Thread: Story of The Free Market - Flawed

  1. #11
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    OMG....the lack of basic economic 'systems' understanding is making my head (and heart) hurt....but please....go on.....

    Did someone actually admit that 'states are run like businesses, and if not run right (whatever that means), they will fail'.....?

    States run like business are the ones that eventually fail because businessmen don't know how to make community....as they generally run on FEAR...

    We need look no further than the so-called 'businessman' in the oval office for evidence...who is going no where....due to knowing nothing about running a country.....or a business.....IMO

    Do we want the people to be fearful of the State/King/LANDLORD? That should be given a different lable, no? Not much 'freedom' or the possibility of a Free market when taking that direction or position (been there, done that, right?)

    ....alas.....That's where we are already heading, globally IMHO

    I've presented volumes of information on the subject of economics, systems, and particularly 'political economy' (what it is and isn't) and have been met with considerable misinformation, indifference and ignorance....all of which have contributed greatly to the place we currently find ourselves....
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    OMG....the lack of basic economic 'systems' understanding is making my head (and heart) hurt....but please....go on.....

    Did someone actually admit that 'states are run like businesses, and if not run right (whatever that means), they will fail'.....?

    States run like business are the ones that eventually fail because businessmen don't know how to make community....as they generally run on FEAR...

    We need look no further than the so-called 'businessman' in the oval office for evidence...who is going no where....due to knowing nothing about running a country.....or a business.....IMO

    Do we want the people to be fearful of the State/King/LANDLORD? That should be given a different lable, no? Not much 'freedom' or the possibility of a Free market when taking that direction or position (been there, done that, right?)

    ....alas.....That's where we are already heading, globally IMHO

    I've presented volumes of information on the subject of economics, systems, and particularly 'political economy' (what it is and isn't) and have been met with considerable misinformation, indifference and ignorance....all of which have contributed greatly to the place we currently find ourselves....
    It's easy to poke fun at someone for failed ventures but I don't see you making an effort, did you really suggest you know more about business than Donald Trump? What's your net worth? I'm sure it's not $10B infact I doubt it's even 5 figures, his success is evidence of his knowledge, but go on. Keep patting yourself on the shoulder and stay arrogant.
    Last edited by Hisoka; 05-12-2017 at 09:55 AM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    I think it's better to be able to make ends meet, have a roof over my head, food on my plate, higher standard of living, and better quality of life, if it means having to be someone at the bottom of the wealth spectrum working for someone at the top of the wealth spectrum (with 1000 times more wealth), than to not have those things because people wanted the state to force redistribution thinking they'd end up with more rather than less (for everyone). Redistribution is an unrealistic concept; resources dissipate because the momentum that's producing them gets reduced, for the same kind of reason that a car will slow down if it loses power.
    See this is the thing that people just accept as "normal" and harmless. Who in their right mind Needs 1000 times more wealth than the next man?

    When you let that happen, it will just continue to grow until the top 1% own 90, 95, 99 percent of all the wealth. Would you still be saying that Inequality is not a problem?

    Just because we have an Economic System where certain individuals can amass an imbalance in wealth, we should just go along with it and hope/pray that one day it will be us? Where's the Natural Law in that!
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hisoka View Post
    Could you give me an example of what could incentivize the state to involve itself in matters between business owners? I would like to know what creates such a knee-jerk reaction, because when it happens, capitalism devolves from a game of "who is better at improving people's lives and bringing most value?" to "who is better at kissing ass?"
    Well to me Capitalism is more about Profit than anything else but what I meant by the State and matters of the incentive kind is simply that at the root of everything, Us the People are the ones who are participating in this Economy. The people in Government have the same kind of incentives as we do in the Economy. To try and better our situation. In these Business matters, the State(People) would still be influenced by certain aspects in these dealings that would determine how they regulate these deals. There would still be a lot of backroom dealings, revolving door type behavior that most people wouldn't really know much about.

    And you can sort of see this today with how the Government is full of people from Business backgrounds and Wealthy Elites. IMO, people in Government should come from the regular working class and you shouldn't be able to become Rich while you're in office neither.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Well to me Capitalism is more about Profit than anything else but what I meant by the State and matters of the incentive kind is simply that at the root of everything, Us the People are the ones who are participating in this Economy. The people in Government have the same kind of incentives as we do in the Economy. To try and better our situation. In these Business matters, the State(People) would still be influenced by certain aspects in these dealings that would determine how they regulate these deals. There would still be a lot of backroom dealings, revolving door type behavior that most people wouldn't really know much about.

    And you can sort of see this today with how the Government is full of people from Business backgrounds and Wealthy Elites. IMO, people in Government should come from the regular working class and you shouldn't be able to become Rich while you're in office neither.
    Then let me ask you, how does a business owner succeed in making a profit? They can't make a profit without serving their customers and making them satisfied. Their interest in making a profit coincides with the customers best interest.

    There should be a law banning a state from making any law infringing upon the workings of the free market, similar to the separation of church and state, if such a law were enforced, there would be no need for any backroom dealings.

    Without the state interfering, everyone has an equal playing field and no one has an unfair advantage.
    Last edited by Hisoka; 05-13-2017 at 01:46 AM.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    See this is the thing that people just accept as "normal" and harmless.
    Why does anything have to be normal? What's deemed "normal" can be a rather subjective thing. Do you perceive something that people just accept as "normal" as actually not being normal?

    Whether or not something is harmless is a better question, but what's being harmful and why? I can tell you that having the state interfere with the free market (the actual free market, not PJ's artistic license version) is harmful for the reasons I think I've given countless times, right here on this forum. I'll state what that reason is, though: when the state interferes with the free market, it results in the cost of the goods and services needed to skyrocket; it results in jobs being priced out of existence for people who need them most; it inhibits progress in technological advancements; it leads to more violence, crime, corruption, pollution, etc. That's just to list a few examples. It also just occurred to me recently that it's actually immoral for the state to interfere in the free market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Who in their right mind Needs 1000 times more wealth than the next man?
    Having 1000 times more wealth and making 100 times more (which is what I'm talking about and the only thing I was talking about) are 2 different things; it probably doesn't really make a difference at this point, but if it does turn out to make a difference later on I can get into that, if/when that time comes.

    Anyways - what difference does it make whether or not it's needed? Might as well ask, why does anyone need to be alive. There is no reason for us to need to be alive; we just are alive. There is no reason for them to need to make 1000 times more, they just do make 1000 times more.

    I actually want those who are capable of making 1000 times more to have that ability; generally those who have that skill also tend to have the skill to know how to invest it wisely. What they earn goes to create and pay for jobs, such as those who directly work for them as butlers, chauffeurs, maids, bodyguards, gardeners, cooks, etc. These folks making 1000 times more are running companies that produce goods and services, and those companies also have employees - probably 1000s of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    When you let that happen, it will just continue to grow until the top 1% own 90, 95, 99 percent of all the wealth. Would you still be saying that Inequality is not a problem?
    I never said inequality was not a problem. I think inequality is a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Just because we have an Economic System where certain individuals can amass an imbalance in wealth, we should just go along with it and hope/pray that one day it will be us? Where's the Natural Law in that!
    That's what envy is, wanting to have what someone else has. But let's look at it from that perspective: would you rather have what the folks in a nation have where even the poorest of the poor have homes, cars, the ability to put food on their plates, or would you rather have what the folks in a nation don't have where everyone, with the exception of a tiny "clique" of those in power & their cronies, lives in really crappy conditions?

    An "if I can't have the same luxuries that the wealthy have then I don't want anyone to have anything" attitude from those who are envious is selfish and greedy.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Not only do I agree with you, Hisoka (and at this point I don't think details about the definitions are important), but I think you may have a better understanding of this issue than I do. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much of this kind of presence, in the post scarcity advocacy movement, of individuals who see eye-to-eye with me on this issue (I've been starving to find folks who do); perhaps we could work together to fix this. I'd look forward to something like that, and to seeing more posts for your thoughts & ideas - as well as your responses to other posts! I think I'm glad you're here.
    Thank you Neil, I don't think I have a better understanding than you from your last post above.

    I'm a quite ego-centric person, I don't like losing in anything let alone a debate but at this point, I care more about learning and increasing my understanding on this subject and many others so I can come to my own conclusions about them.

    Do you have any resources you would recommend to increase my understanding of the intricacies of Capitalism(or anything else you think would be of value, doesn't have to be money related at all)?
    Last edited by Hisoka; 05-13-2017 at 04:24 AM.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hisoka View Post
    It's easy to poke fun at someone for failed ventures but I don't see you making an effort, did you really suggest you know more about business than Donald Trump? What's your net worth? I'm sure it's not $10B infact I doubt it's even 5 figures, his success is evidence of his knowledge, but go on. Keep patting yourself on the shoulder and stay arrogant.
    "One can never 'see' what one doesn't look for"

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hisoka View Post
    Thank you Neil, I don't think I have a better understanding than you from your last post above.

    I'm a quite ego-centric person, I don't like losing in anything let alone a debate but at this point, I care more about learning and increasing my understanding on this subject and many others so I can come to my own conclusions about them.

    Do you have any resources you would recommend to increase my understanding of the intricacies of Capitalism(or anything else you think would be of value, doesn't have to be money related at all)?
    If true words are spoken above....this is a great place to 'listen, READ and learn'......

    "Egocentric tendencies and behavior place irrational blinders upon us that everyone else can see"
    Ernest likes this.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hisoka View Post
    Then let me ask you, how does a business owner succeed in making a profit? They can't make a profit without serving their customers and making them satisfied. Their interest in making a profit coincides with the customers best interest.

    There should be a law banning a state from making any law infringing upon the workings of the free market, similar to the separation of church and state, if such a law were enforced, there would be no need for any backroom dealings.

    Without the state interfering, everyone has an equal playing field and no one has an unfair advantage.
    That is what Marketing, Advertising etc. is for and why it's so Powerful to the Human Psychology. It's a Science of the Mind and is what decides our "best interests" "satisfaction". We don't actually make those decisions. We are given choices to choose something that feels like we are in control but the system of Consumerism/Commercialism is what we're all under.

    And as far as what you say about passing Laws that ban a State from infringing on the Free Market. You pretty much still run into the same old problems of who will be enforcing these Laws? The States going to police itself?? You need an organization of People for this but then again, where do you find such People with high Moral/Integrity??? Isn't Everyone bound by the Same Economic Laws???? there's your problem again ...
    droneBEE likes this.

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