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Thread: Entitlements...

  1. #1
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    Entitlements...

    WHY is it that whenever we or some 'talking head' or self proclaimed 'know-it-all' speaks about 'entitlements' the focus is always on the so-called entitlements designed to keep the poor 'in place' (divided, desperate, confused, disorganized and demonized by society), which allows us all to blindly accept and tolerate the excessive 'entitlements' provided to the wealthy? WHY?

    As just 'one' recent example, and I know everyone posting here can think of dozens (maybe not?) more ...but...Does anyone really/truly believe the CEO of Aetna Insurance 'works' harder or is somehow more deserving of a less stressful existence, greater opportunities/options for leisure than my closest neighbor, a Nursing Home LPN, part time Farmer? (Who among us can make an honest living off the land anymore, besides those who never touch the soil?)?

    Could our problems with collective blindness have something/anything to do with the conditioning we receive and that is reinforced by our own refusal to see that which is right in front of our eyes? ABUNDANCE, ABUNDANCE, ABUNDANCE!!!

    What other explanation is there for 'poisoning our world' on purpose, for profit, for convenience, with little though about tomorrow, much less 100 years from now? What other reason is there for allowing/accepting capitalists to CAPITALIZE that which belongs to us all and keeping the majority of profits for themselves, then 'charging' the rest of us simply to live....spending considerable amounts to 'keep the people at bay' and from taking back what has been stolen and capitalized on for personal/INDIVIDUAL gain.

    There are hundreds of Economic and Psychological studies that clearly suggest this apparent truth, but I believe we all 'know' this truth already in our hearts, whether we are able to admit it or not, whether we can resist its temptations or not......

    I also know/appreciate/recognize that the pressures coming from society can be relentless and unforgiving.....Its what keeps us divided and tribal....and also 'ripe' for the picking by those pulling the strings, behind the curtain few bother to look for. SOS, SOS!!!
    Last edited by droneBEE; 03-14-2017 at 06:55 AM.
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  2. #2
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    > Does anyone really/truly believe the CEO of Aetna Insurance 'works' harder or is somehow more deserving

    Yes to both !

    When you discover just how hard many folk like that work to get into that position and stay there, it is truly staggering.


    > a Nursing Home LPN, part time Farmer?

    Whilst I agree they also work hard, one might ask, where would they be without an insurance company to bail them out during hard time such as a hurricane destroying their home and them claiming on the insurance.

    There might be thousands if not tens of thousands of part time farmers, but just how many Elon Musk's in the world ?


    > What other reason is there for allowing/accepting capitalists to CAPITALIZE that which belongs to us all and keeping the majority of profits for themselves

    We will start with the last point first, that of the majority of the profits, which come after all the workers are paid, so they are getting something too out of it all.

    But don't get me wrong about this, I'm not necessarily saying capitalists are all singing all dancing angels, but without them, how would anything ever get designed and built ?

    Those few individuals who can get a team together and build something useful that you and I benefit from, is why capitalism works.

    Now, if there was some other way we could design and build things without needing capitalists, I'd be all for it.

    Perhaps the nearest we get at the moment is crowd funding, where a little is given by lots of mini-capitalists towards a project.

    Or micro-finance, where lots of us lend a little money to business start ups.


    We are stuck in a loop, one I'm not sure we can escape from.


    I've a project I've been working on for lets see now, 15 to 20 years, could be another 5 to 10 years before its finished.

    In all that time I've been homeless several times, had to start from scratch almost, had many setbacks/etc. yet I doggedly continue, which is perhaps why no one else has done it yet either, as its not easy !

    Even though technically, its quite easy, if you had a team of a hundred skilled and experienced people, it could be done in a year or two.

    But unless you have capital, you can't just go out and get volunteers to help with a project, I've tried !

    I've seen countless people try and fail.

    I have seen some succeed though..

    And that interests me, why do they succeed, and others fail ?

    I don't know the answer to that one yet !

    If I did, then perhaps that would be the answer to, what could replace capitalism !

    So I don't begrudge the wealthy, for without them I wouldn't have such things as a computer to use, or a television, or the bicycle !

    But at the same time, in my almost abject poverty, I wish things was a little different, because there must be others like me, not quite having made it yet in life, who could contribute something useful to society, if only we had more resources..

    But them, how do you decide who gets what resources for what project, if there a million projects and only resources for a thousand.. ?

    Natural selection seems such a harsh sledgehammer approach to making decisions when I'm almost pretty sure there is a more efficient way to go about things that isn't so wasteful of talent and resources.

    After all, do we need a 100 different mobile phone companies all duplicating each others efforts, or could we do better with just a handful..

    But I don't know how we get from here to there, the future, where things could be done with greater efficiency, without people learning to work together in teams to take the role of what currently is taken with capitalists.

    Apart from perhaps, if we all had Universal Basic Income, then we would all be mini-capitalists..

    Which isn't really replacing capitalism with anything, just making us all one !

    Still, it might be a step in the right direction to the next phase, whatever that is, we haven't figured out yet !


    Perhaps experimenting with an RBE simulator will through up some interesting lines of research into what might be some possible solutions to that.

    Hopefully the above gives folk some food for thought on the subject.
    Last edited by YouTuber; 03-14-2017 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Spelling error

  3. #3
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    It might be helpful to give you an example situation and see if we can figure out a better non-capitalist way of doing things.

    I once had a mining cooperative, everyone was paid the same hourly rate of pay, no matter what their job, and all profits was shared between the workers and myself.

    But..

    To start said cooperative I first had to put up all the starting capital !

    Even though all my workers collectively had enough capital between them to do so, they did not want to risk their capital !

    After a year of running it well, I gave the company to the workers and left with the same capital as I first started with.

    But..

    Visiting it years later, I find the company without me at the helm is only just ticking over, people are making 10 times less money per hour than they used to be when I had things running with super efficiency, the equipment was worn out, badly in need of repair, and half the equipment had been stolen by dishonest employees !

    Now to be fair, I had problems with dishonest staff, as such I tried to organise access to equipment such that even managers only had limited access so couldn't easily steal everything.

    None the less, I still had three warehouses totally emptied by three managers who decided they could start their own company by stealing our equipment !

    That time, we managed to steal most of it back again. :-)

    That reminds me of airline company who had an entire building stolen by a rival airline company a piece at a time, and only when someone from the first airline spotted it at another airfield and asked for it back or else they would involve the law, did they get it back !


    So, how would you start a mining cooperative if everyone didn't want to put their capital into it ?

    It seems we always have to rely on that one person willing to risk their capital to start things !
    (Though as someone rich once said to me, the trick is to borrow the money, then its not your capital your risking!)

    But it isn't easy to just go into a bank and ask to borrow 100 Million on an unsecured loan. :-)


    But how else might we do things ?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    WHY is it that whenever we or some 'talking head' or self proclaimed 'know-it-all' speaks about 'entitlements' the focus is always on the so-called entitlements designed to keep the poor 'in place' (divided, desperate, confused, disorganized and demonized by society), which allows us all to blindly accept and tolerate the excessive 'entitlements' provided to the wealthy? WHY?

    As just 'one' recent example, and I know everyone posting here can think of dozens (maybe not?) more ...but...Does anyone really/truly believe the CEO of Aetna Insurance 'works' harder or is somehow more deserving of a less stressful existence, greater opportunities/options for leisure than my closest neighbor, a Nursing Home LPN, part time Farmer? (Who among us can make an honest living off the land anymore, besides those who never touch the soil?)?
    Where is the 'Common Sense' in all of this today?!

    There's barely any and is why people think/behave in this way like it's all okay and normal? Focusing on the Poor when talking about Entitlements, CEO's making Millions like it's justifiable to do so, everyday people just accepting this(YouTuber) like there's nothing wrong here and so on ...?

    Our Social & Educational Systems have done an excellent job at taking away are ability to have & use Common Sense anymore. And if we want to back even further. I read that a lot of this stuff actually goes back to things Religion has preached. So either way I think this shrinkage of Common Sense potential is what is allowing this blind acceptance and tolerance of all this Absurdity going on in the World today.
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    > everyday people just accepting this(YouTuber) like there's nothing wrong here

    I did say:

    > don't get me wrong about this

    Which translates into:

    I see what is wrong with it, but at the same time, I understand how and why it works that way.

    I'm all for figuring out a better way to do things.


    As a programmer I get a feel for the code, and I feel we could improve things, somehow, I just don't know how yet in detail.

    But often when you create a program, you start with something and add to it until its finished and working, without necessarily knowing how to do anything but the step you are currently engaged in !

    So just because we don't necessarily know the final solution, shouldn't stop us from taking the first few steps in what we consider to be the right direction and then figuring out once there, what to do next.
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  6. #6
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    Perhaps a better question; Where would the rich man be without his Nurse, or any of the other slaves in his employ......? When still working I had many/frequent opportunities to 'get close' to rich folks...so have some personal opinions and observances too.

    Let me say this....After more than a 25 plus year career in Government, rubbing up against rich and poor folk alike, along with several politicians and their stooges, I never met a rich man that I could completely trust, or that showed any true compassion toward anyone (I suppose that 'could' just be my problem?)....although I've met some poor folks whom I still remain friends with, who always feed me, and offer their home, send me cards, letters....Go Figure, heh?

    I've got some physical imitations....and I'm pushing 70, but I've never met a rich man that could keep up with me....or was even willing to get his hands dirty...

    Is it really any wonder WHY we don't ever get or go anywhere important.....:roll eyes:

    The 'solutions' to our modern problems are ignored.....in favor of drama and unnecessary complexities designed by and for the RICH in order to remain RICH.....IMHO..
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  7. #7
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    It sure would be nice if we could minimally address the questions posed in the OP, instead of all the posturing, blather and smoke....

    Alas...our own self importance reigns so high it makes us blind, deaf and dumb.....:roll eyes:

    .....no offense intended......but a more meaningful, well thought out discussion is what was sought.......... one that addressed the 'title' perhaps?????
    Last edited by droneBEE; 03-15-2017 at 04:52 AM.
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    I have noticed an odd thing that when many people go from being poor to rich, they behave just as badly as other rich folk !

    Doesn't happen to all though, but makes me wonder, was they always like that deep down ?

    Or does being rich, have a strange effect on some people ?


    > or was even willing to get his hands dirty...

    Perhaps they are fed up having got their hands dirty the first time around !

    I have to say, as I'm wearing out, I'm getting less inclined to get my hands dirty as the years roll on, and look forward to when I have more automation to rely on !

    But generally in agreement with what you just said.

  9. #9
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    Personally I look forward to using my hands (and my Brain) every day (its what both were designed for IMHO), whether its getting ankle deep into the soil, come gardening season, or out in the garage tinkering, repairing, CREATING.....

    I hope to always enjoy the sight, feel and smell of the Earth, in and on my my hands and beneath my feet.....
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouTuber View Post
    > Does anyone really/truly believe the CEO of Aetna Insurance 'works' harder or is somehow more deserving

    Yes to both !

    When you discover just how hard many folk like that work to get into that position and stay there, it is truly staggering.
    You and I agree on lots of stuff, but I don't know on this one

    My local walmart manager gets $250k and I'm quite sure I could find someone who would do it for half that especially since this one can't seem to run a store. Why would the horseradish be with the sour scream? It took a small army of employees to finally find it.

    I'm positive I could find someone to head wells fargo better than that goober I saw expiating before congress and I could do it for a mere 10% of the obscene amount he was paid. Do you think for $5 million we couldn't find someone to run a bank?

    Sure, those people have special skills, but they aren't that special.

    There might be thousands if not tens of thousands of part time farmers, but just how many Elon Musk's in the world ?
    That's cherry-picking. Drone was talking about ceos selected to head the boards who supposedly have talent on par with hall of fame worthy pro-athletes that STILL aren't even paid as much as many ceos. And even though Elon Musk is part of a select-few in class with Steve Jobs, he's still merely someone who was in the right place at the right time and had the right stuff. If he hadn't existed, someone else would be doing what he's doing.

    Here, start at about 11:00 and listen for a couple min:



    The fact that Paul McCarthney and the Rolling Stones can't produce hit after hit, still, means the following things don't matter: skill, experience, connections, fame...

    And then check out Buffett on the "ovarian lottery" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goEmCouHqHs

    And here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZTweMHEFAI

    The richest man on earth claims to have "fallen into it".

    The ceo of the US gets a measly $400k and how much talent and how many years of hard work does it take to get in that position? If you say "any idiot could be president because look at Trump", then you're saying any idiot could be ceo. If you say "Trump had to make lots of money (have lots of talent) to get elected", then you're saying those caliber of people will willingly work for less (I think Trump is only taking $1 salary anyway).

    The obscene overpay some guys get is a gross mismanagement of resources and I can't see any justification for it (I'd feel better if I could).
    HAL9000 likes this.

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