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Thread: How to stop the renewed rise of Fascism

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Loners, whether they be insect, amphibian or mammal tend to die off sooner
    Yes unless they are smart enough to last longer. A lone insect may die sooner, but not a tiger. Tigers get no benefit from teamwork, just competition.

    My theory is that the simpler your mind, the easier it should be to thrive in groups.

    If all your attributes are: likes blue, eats pizza, drinks beer, then it should be easier to find someone who matches with you.

  2. #22
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    Suggestions on countering fascism

    I understand that at the core of fascism is the thought of people as means to an end rather than an end as such.

    So the question becomes: How does one reduce the need to use other people as tools?

    One approach is to reduce the individual's need to go through all that manipulation and coercion in the first place. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a fair starting point when going through a list of what a human needs. Participating in the development of technological means of providing more for everyone while using less resources and participating in activities that make the fruits of these labors more accessible to people.

    If a human population does not predict being in any imminent danger, rallying them to an aggressive group effort will be more difficult. There are institutions that focus on creating a perceived threat to a population's needs - there is the possibility of trying to keep these institutions accountable of the information they provide, but opposing them will lock you in a struggle that tries to prevent an approach rather than provide a new one and is therefore not recommended. Trying this route may also result in some kind of active backlash from the monolithic systems.

    However, providing truthful information on the matters and methods required for people to meet their own needs reduces peoples' uncertainty about their own survival and will in good conditions invite people to conduct their own garage-scientific experiments about the functioning of the world around them. Various tutorials on the Web teach complex profession skills are an example of this direction. Providing routes to credible sources of information about social matters is another.

    If the threat the population predicts is real or too persistent to be reconsidered, offering peaceful, constructive solutions to the situation is important to avoid additional escalation of the situation and build networks of cooperation between different groups. Instruction of this nature should be accompanied with true stories, scientific studies or demonstrations, according to what will most likely reach the receiving audience. When offering information to a hierarchy of fascists, Jacque Fresco -style of approaching the leaders of those groups as high up as possible should be favored in order to not appear to be trying to fragment the group, since that may cause backlash and getting the message blocked due to fear.

    A line of reasoning to convince people not to use other people as tools and accept such an environment may come from sending the behavior as a signal into a population, where it spreads, multiplies, gets refined and the most naturally talented in executing it do so. Compare the two behaviors in this way - either the individuals strive to enslave or elevate each other. Remember to claim this example as an exaggeration, but even if everyone in the population doesn't participate in the given behavior, there are many who certainly will if the winds blow favorably for that behavior [1].

    [1] 10 Points About the Science of Spreading Good - 10 Points About the Science of Spreading Good, by James Fowler
    (I suppose I'd look for a more cited article for an example with helpful behavior. There should be memorable examples out there.)

    Edit 1: Made it a bit less wall-of-texty
    Last edited by Blastra; 12-29-2016 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Made it a bit less wall-of-texty
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophicDrippins View Post
    Yes unless they are smart enough to last longer. A lone insect may die sooner, but not a tiger. Tigers get no benefit from teamwork, just competition.

    My theory is that the simpler your mind, the easier it should be to thrive in groups.

    If all your attributes are: likes blue, eats pizza, drinks beer, then it should be easier to find someone who matches with you.

    .... Sure am glad its just 'your' theory....

    Right Tiger's are nearly extinct, no?

    Lion's are the only member of the feline family living in groups or Prides...LEARNING the behavior over many generations for their survival.....and were also doing quite well....at least until human beings began destroying their habitat...

    My own theory (one with considerable substantiating evidence) is that TOLERANCE, ACCEPTANCE, COMPASSION and EMPATHY is what makes it easier to survive and Thrive in groups...

    Human Loner's seldom thrive IMO.....with exceptions to a few Monks, loner's generally reach a specific point emotionally and simply fade away... alone, often leaving no one behind to tell their tale...as 'lonely and deeply frustrated' people.....

    Tesla (a loner, but also a personal Hero non-the-less), would be a good example for us to ponder.....And he was Famous (but also LUCKY to be in the right place at the right time, so his genius was at least recognized, albeit ridiculed).....unlike the vast majority of selectively lonely folks, those incapable of getting along with mixed groups of people, whether they are like-minded or not...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Right Tiger's are nearly extinct, no?
    Because they were such a threat, humans killed them.

    Lion's are the only member of the feline family living in groups or Prides...LEARNING the behavior over many generations for their survival.....and were also doing quite well....at least until human beings began destroying their habitat...
    The lion pride is smaller than the herds of their prey. That's my point. Members of smaller groups tend to be smarter than members of larger groups.

    My own theory (one with considerable substantiating evidence) is that TOLERANCE, ACCEPTANCE, COMPASSION and EMPATHY is what makes it easier to survive and Thrive in groups...
    I wonder if it's the opposite. "Hate" makes it easier to thrive in groups. Nothing brings people together like a common enemy.

    Human Loner's seldom thrive IMO.....with exceptions to a few Monks, loner's generally reach a specific point emotionally and simply fade away... alone, often leaving no one behind to tell their tale...as 'lonely and deeply frustrated' people.....
    Well that's tragic and should move you to do something about it rather than make fun of it.

    Tesla (a loner, but also a personal Hero non-the-less), would be a good example for us to ponder.....And he was Famous (but also LUCKY to be in the right place at the right time, so his genius was at least recognized, albeit ridiculed).....unlike the vast majority of selectively lonely folks, those incapable of getting along with mixed groups of people, whether they are like-minded or not...
    I think of it like this... if something stinks, the smart one moves away. The one who is unable to notice the smell doesn't care.

    I've read that coffee drinkers are actually "blind" to the bitter taste of coffee. Some people can taste bitterness in tomatoes. Therefore, people who are more in touch with the real world and are able to perceive more about it, then are offended more easily because they are less "blind" or "numb". It follows that someone who is more intelligent would find more things offensive that are totally oblivious to the numerous members of the herd. I believe that is why research is finding that more intelligent people have less friends... like Tesla.

    Boltzman suffered a similar fate and hanged himself after a lifetime of ridicule, but he is now a hero.

    To discover your future heroes, look who the crowd ridicules today.

  5. #25
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    Shouldn't we also ask why someone is a 'Loner'. Is it because of some natural trait they have or because of what's going on around them? I think someone who is Intelligent can be part of both of these groups. So then I don't really think that someone's Intelligence level would necessarily lean them more towards one of these reasons.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Shouldn't we also ask why someone is a 'Loner'. Is it because of some natural trait they have or because of what's going on around them? I think someone who is Intelligent can be part of both of these groups. So then I don't really think that someone's Intelligence level would necessarily lean them more towards one of these reasons.
    I think the stats disagree.

    Intelligent people are more likely to binge-drink and be self-destructive:

    Net of all the other variables included in the ordinal multiple regression equations, education is not significantly correlated with the frequency of binge drinking and getting drunk. Among other things, it means that college students are more likely to engage in binge drinking, not because they are in college, but because they are more intelligent. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...inge-drink-and

    They're more likely to be night-owls, which I believe is an effort to avoid people in general.

    Taken together, results presented in Table 1 largely support our hypothesis that more intelligent individuals are more likely to be night owls. http://personal.lse.ac.uk/KANAZAWA/pdfs/PAID2009.pdf

    Intelligence does not give an offsetting advantage for the disadvantage it causes:

    What, if any, evolutionary advantage does intelligence give us?

    Actually, less intelligent people are better at doing most things. In the ancestral environment general intelligence was helpful only for solving a handful of evolutionarily novel problems.

    So intelligent people do well in almost every sphere of modern life, except for the most important things, like how to find a mate, how to raise a child, how to make friends. Intelligence does not confer any advantage for solving all the evolutionarily familiar problems that our ancestors encountered. More intelligent people do not have any advantage in finding mates and often have disadvantages.
    Quick study: Satoshi Kanazawa on intelligence: The disadvantage of smarts | The Economist

    Intelligent people are more likely to be less happy in general:

    If ignorance is bliss, does a high IQ equal misery? As Ernest Hemingway wrote: “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.”

    Rather than basking in their successes, many reported that they had been plagued by the sense that they had somehow failed to live up to their youthful expectations.

    Interviewing students on campus about various topics of discussion, Alexander Penney at MacEwan University in Canada found that those with the higher IQ did indeed feel more anxiety throughout the day. “If something negative happened, they thought about it more.”
    BBC - Future - The surprising downsides of being clever

    Intelligent people are more likely to commit suicide:

    Around 70 percent of all suicide victims in the United States are white males and it is no secret that high intelligence and creativity is a blessing and a burden, given that the more of each trait one possesses, the greater the chance of viewing the world and one’s self in a negative light. The simple conclusion is that if they do not consistently reach their own personal goals set by their peak levels of intelligence and creativity they have deemed themselves a failure, and there is not much else to do besides sit back and watch them spiral downhill. While we are watching, we wonder why they abuse their bodies with alcohol and drugs, push people away, and flush their potential down the toilet. The Highly Intelligent, Creative, Self-Destructive White Male in Literature and Film | The Huffington Post

    It should be clear why intelligent people function better with less idiots, er I mean, friends.



    If there are 30 million people with IQ over 110, then 70 million are intolerable. 30% of the population probably are not going to find friendship in 70% of the herd.

  7. #27
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    So the answer is to just talk confidently and make bold statements and proclomations and the populace will just follow you.

    That's because many are too clueless to decipher the academic debate so they go by who sounds most confident and strong.

    So what we need is someone like a Peter Joseph who understands the underlying issues and complexities behind the problems and how to solve them but also who can speak like a braggart and claim they will fix everything if people just vote for him.

    That's it. You have to put on a display and posture confidence to the masses because most of them can't grasp the underlying debate behind all this.

    It's very evolutionary, apparently. It's a visual thing with the masses. They're looking for visual clues to guide them because the issues are too deep and involved to decipher on the fly.
    "The stress of nature never ends, but at a certain level still other driving forces originate which put the whip to the creative power of man with a multiplied force... The new relations are detected first by a few (with the finest moral tentacles), afterwards by more, then they are consolidated in rules which begin to push aside the earlier moral code and in the end eliminate it."

    "They who decry the loss of masculinity the loudest, are certain of it in themselves the least."

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsir View Post
    So the answer is to just talk confidently and make bold statements and proclomations and the populace will just follow you.

    That's because many are too clueless to decipher the academic debate so they go by who sounds most confident and strong.

    So what we need is someone like a Peter Joseph who understands the underlying issues and complexities behind the problems and how to solve them but also who can speak like a braggart and claim they will fix everything if people just vote for him.

    That's it. You have to put on a display and posture confidence to the masses because most of them can't grasp the underlying debate behind all this.

    It's very evolutionary, apparently. It's a visual thing with the masses. They're looking for visual clues to guide them because the issues are too deep and involved to decipher on the fly.
    Welcome back fsir! I was about to pm you saying you were missed.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophicDrippins View Post
    I think the stats disagree.
    So you mean College Students are more likely to Binge-Drink/Self-Destructive behavior. Sure why not but where is the Intelligence in all of this?

    Wouldn't Intelligent people also love to enjoy their days when things might be more available or satisfying to them. They can still do things with limited human contact, No?

    What evolutionary advantage does Intelligence give us? I don't know, wouldn't it give you better chances at survival. You would be better at understanding, adapting & mastering your environment increasing your chances for a good Social Life. If there's a problem here, I would imagine that something else is going on and not the issue of merely ones Intelligence.

    If Intelligent people are more unhappy in their lives. Wouldn't they have more Knowledge/Information to help them overcome this. I mean if they can't figure out how to make their lives more happy, what type of Intelligence are we talking about here? To me it would seem that other Psychosocial issues are at play here.

    And lastly, if someone sees themself as a "failure" in life and commits Suicide. Why would it more likely happen if he is of high Intelligence? Again I don't see a correlation here. To me an Intelligent person would have more opportunities to overcome these issues and change their way of thinking. We should be asking what causes Depression. I don't think it has anything to do with ones Intelligence right?

    So the answers to these questions I believe are a lot more harder to explain than just by looking at Intelligence. We should also be analyzing Environmental, Biological, Dietary, Economic, and all other data we can gather.
    droneBEE likes this.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    So you mean College Students are more likely to Binge-Drink/Self-Destructive behavior. Sure why not but where is the Intelligence in all of this?
    College students are more likely to engage in binge drinking, not because they are in college, but because they are more intelligent.

    As you can see in the following graph, there is a clear monotonic positive association between childhood intelligence and adult frequency of binge drinking.




    Wouldn't Intelligent people also love to enjoy their days when things might be more available or satisfying to them. They can still do things with limited human contact, No?
    In my opinion, it isn't that intelligent people don't like people and want to be alone, it's that they are driven to being alone... not that they prefer it. So creating an environment where they are allowed to be alone isn't a solution.

    I'm sure Tesla would have loved someone with whom to share his passion of electricity, unfortunately, everyone was argumentative, competitive, and a nuisance to him.

    Edison suggested the limitations of distance for DC power could be overcome by millions of power stations spaced a few miles apart in order to boost the voltage... instead of simply embracing Tesla's AC generation model. Edison is the genius and Tesla is mostly forgotten while power companies use Edison's name and Tesla's inventions.



    What evolutionary advantage does Intelligence give us? I don't know, wouldn't it give you better chances at survival. You would be better at understanding, adapting & mastering your environment increasing your chances for a good Social Life. If there's a problem here, I would imagine that something else is going on and not the issue of merely ones Intelligence.
    Those burned at the stake for suggesting the earth isn't the center of the universe didn't find intelligence such an advantage when the earth is "obviously" at the center.

    That's the problem... the ideas of smart people aren't popular and are ridiculed. Being smart enough to see the earth is not the center does not give one an advantage in finding food and presents an obstacle in being social because being social means you have to lie and compromise your principles for the sake of companionship with stupid people, incapable of fair-play, who would otherwise make fun of you if it weren't for your concealing the thing you'd most like to relate to someone.

    Look how many friends I've made on this board. Clearly, it's because I'm stupid, right? I suppose everyone would be more inclined to be friendly with me if I were to simply tow the line. If I were just a bit dumber, I wouldn't be able to see the objections I have and would be much more agreeable.

    So society is an unnatural evolution where the brightest are ridiculed, jailed, burned, shot, suicided, etc while leaving those not smart enough to see any objections to the status quo. Mob rules. Might makes right. Etc.



    If Intelligent people are more unhappy in their lives. Wouldn't they have more Knowledge/Information to help them overcome this. I mean if they can't figure out how to make their lives more happy, what type of Intelligence are we talking about here? To me it would seem that other Psychosocial issues are at play here.
    So it would seem, but a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. Being omniscient is ideal.

    I think the first step for anyone battling these issues is to be aware that they are common and expected.

    And lastly, if someone sees themself as a "failure" in life and commits Suicide. Why would it more likely happen if he is of high Intelligence?
    You've answered your own question here:

    Again I don't see a correlation here.
    The correlation was presented to you, but what you meant to say was "Again, I REFUSE to see a correlation."

    That argumentative nature of people could be why some give up on humanity.

    To me an Intelligent person would have more opportunities to overcome these issues and change their way of thinking.
    The grass is always greener on the other side. Everyone thinks being smart or rich would cure all their problems but often causes more problems than it fixes.

    We should be asking what causes Depression. I don't think it has anything to do with ones Intelligence right?
    Depression is anger turned inwards.

    Does High IQ Increase the Risk of Depression and Mental Disorders? | Brain Blogger

    In a study on children with IQ levels above 130 — regarded as superior to very superior intelligence — researchers found that 65 percent of the subjects had major depressive disorder.

    A study in Sweden has found that people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are more likely to work in creative jobs that require high levels of cognitive and artistic intelligence than individuals who do not suffer from these mental disorders.


    Why Smarter People Are More Likely To Be Mentally Ill

    Specifically, the neuronal calcium sensor-1 protein was associated in a mouse model with spatial memory and curiosity. Interestingly, that same protein has been linked in humans to bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.

    Other research supporting a link between intelligence and mental health problems shows bipolar disorder may be four times as common among young adults who’d earned straight-A’s in school.

    lead researcher James MacCabe, wrote in a study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry. “These findings provide support for the hypothesis that exceptional intellectual ability is associated with bipolar disorder.”

    Perhaps not surpisingly, the correlation between A grades and bipolar disorder was strongest among students excelling in music and language, supporting popular notions about writers and artists with regard to mental health.

    A similar study from Jari Tiihonen at the University of Kuopio in Finland also supports the link, although with arithmetic as a correlative for IQ. In mining data on Finnish military conscripts, the Finnish researchers found an almost unbelievably high correlation between high-scorers and those who later received bipolar diagnoses — 12-fold.

    Although some studies have shown no connection, more than 30 academic papers support a link between intelligence and bipolar disorder.


    Ignorance is bliss!

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