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Thread: A Case for Monetary Economics

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    A Case for Monetary Economics

    First and foremost I would like to say that I am a huge advocate of the NLRBE and I am a firm believer in its principles and methods. I am currently in the process of reading The Zeitgeist Movement Defined and find it to be a very informative piece.

    The purpose of this thread is for me to play devils advocate though; as in the future I plan on starting a Zeitgeist chapter in my city since none are present here where I live, and I know the day will come when I will have to debate pro-free market advocates and libertarian-type thinkers. So for the sake of discussion I will be delving into the mind of such an individual and pose 5 arguments against an RBE and for the free market:


    First one: as a business entrepreneur, pure self interest will run your business into the ground. For you have many other peoples interests in the community in mind. If you don't satisfy the needs of your customer in the most affordable way possible, then they will leave and go elsewhere for a better deal. If you don't pay your employees fairly they will go elsewhere to work to someone who will pay them reasonably. So in a free market, as long as the business are kept small and competitive, it is obvious that the producer / business owner must work to meet the needs of the community in order to make sufficient profit.

    Second argument: centrally planned economies of the past such as in communist Russian and China have always lead to shortages and not enough food going around, but in a free market, this has never been the case. The problem with giving the state that much power is that it ultimately leads into becoming a corrupt dictatorship. Even in democratic socialist countries like in Europe, there are shortages of healthcare services as a result.

    Third argument: since the free market is constantly trying to get cheaper and cheaper goods in the hands of the public, such as cellphones, refrigerators, and televisions being more available than ever before; even amongst the poorest in society. So therefore, the poor are doing better and better over time because of the market.

    Fourth argument: Historically, the most successful societies have been the ones where capitalism is very present! British trade and colonialism modernized tribes and small nations. United States corporations globalizing has helped the third world by providing them with jobs via outsourcing! It helps the American people because it gets cheaper goods into their hands, and it helps the poor around the world by giving them jobs. On top of that, trade creates peace, because now every bodies hands are in every bodies pockets. Clearly the best way to end world hunger and bring more peace is more capitalism, not less. Let the invisible hand to its work!

    Fifth argument: People will not be motivated to work if everything is handed to them on a silver platter. Some of the best inventions and creations in history were by people seeking to turn a profit. Just look at Thomas Edison, the creator of the lightbulb. What will motivate people in an RBE?


    I look forward to hearing the arguments and rebuttals. Thank you for the input.
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    Hi H0arx0r and welcome to the forum! Let's say se are in a televised debate, and then I try to find quick and pertinent answers to each point.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    First one: as a business entrepreneur, pure self interest will run your business into the ground. For you have many other peoples interests in the community in mind. If you don't satisfy the needs of your customer in the most affordable way possible, then they will leave and go elsewhere for a better deal. If you don't pay your employees fairly they will go elsewhere to work to someone who will pay them reasonably. So in a free market, as long as the business are kept small and competitive, it is obvious that the producer / business owner must work to meet the needs of the community in order to make sufficient profit.
    Agreed -- however in a free market you cannot keep businesses small and competitive, as they will always tend to be overrun by big monopolies.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    Second argument: centrally planned economies of the past such as in communist Russian and China have always lead to shortages and not enough food going around, but in a free market, this has never been the case. The problem with giving the state that much power is that it ultimately leads into becoming a corrupt dictatorship. Even in democratic socialist countries like in Europe, there are shortages of healthcare services as a result.
    That's why an RBE should be built from the ground up, and self-organised, with no top authority. Internet makes that more feasible than ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    Third argument: since the free market is constantly trying to get cheaper and cheaper goods in the hands of the public, such as cellphones, refrigerators, and televisions being more available than ever before; even amongst the poorest in society. So therefore, the poor are doing better and better over time because of the market.
    It's not the market itself, but the standardisation of the technology, which makes goods cheaper (if we don't count the use of cheap methods which are damaging to the environment). In an RBE, things can be standardised even more because there is no need for companies to outcompete each other by making their products incompatible.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    Fourth argument: Historically, the most successful societies have been the ones where capitalism is very present! British trade and colonialism modernized tribes and small nations. United States corporations globalizing has helped the third world by providing them with jobs via outsourcing! It helps the American people because it gets cheaper goods into their hands, and it helps the poor around the world by giving them jobs. On top of that, trade creates peace, because now every bodies hands are in every bodies pockets. Clearly the best way to end world hunger and bring more peace is more capitalism, not less. Let the invisible hand to its work!
    Capitalist countries got richer because they exploited third-world countries, and this process is continuing -- perhaps worse than ever in Africa. On top of that, competition between nations for resources create war.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    Fifth argument: People will not be motivated to work if everything is handed to them on a silver platter. Some of the best inventions and creations in history were by people seeking to turn a profit. Just look at Thomas Edison, the creator of the lightbulb. What will motivate people in an RBE?
    The biggest incentive for work is passion and the feeling that what you do is meaningful. What is more meaningful than working towards a better future for humanity?

    Furthermore many jobs are being automatised. What is a huge problem in a capitalist society becomes a huge opportunity and relief in an RBE.
    Last edited by Phil; 08-29-2016 at 03:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post

    Agreed -- however in a free market you cannot keep businesses small and competitive, as they will always tend to be overrun by big monopolies.
    And wouldn't that be the responsibility of government? To break up big businesses into a dozen smaller ones to keep the market competitive?


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    That's why an RBE should be built from the ground up, and self-organised, with no top authority. Internet makes that more feasible than ever.
    But you would inevitably need a handful of people to manage and repair these systems! Nobody is going to want to do all that work for free. How would such a system be organized without central planning?


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    It's not the market itself, but the standardisation of the technology, which makes goods cheaper (if we don't count the use of cheap methods which are damaging to the environment). In an RBE, things can be standardised even more because there is no need for companies to outcompete each other by making their products incompatible.
    Good answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Capitalist countries got richer because they exploited third-world countries, and this process is continuing -- perhaps worse than ever in Africa. On top of that, competition between nations for resources create war.
    But the market is bringing these people jobs! Its helping these areas grow! And we need the oil because countless people would be put out of work and live in squallar if it werent for fracking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    The biggest incentive for work is passion and the feeling that what you do is meaningful. What is more meaningful than working towards a better future for humanity?
    But the struggle is a necessary evil. Thats how you get the best contributors. Millionaires and billionaires don't come out of nowhere. Often they pull themselves up by their boot straps, contribute something big, and they earn their wealth! Look at Steve Jobs, his contributions are vast and he was rich!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post

    Furthermore many jobs are being automatised. What is a huge problem in a capitalist society becomes a huge opportunity and relief in an RBE.
    Historically, every time a job has been replaced by machines, new jobs comes in to replace the lost labor. This is precisely what happened during the industrial revolution. The jobs just move to a new field of labor. In the future, people will get paid to fix these machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    And wouldn't that be the responsibility of government? To break up big businesses into a dozen smaller ones to keep the market competitive?
    ... and companies always trying to find ways around it. That's an unavoidable eternal struggle built into the system, and it's such a waste of energy! Not to mention corrupted governments.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    But you would inevitably need a handful of people to manage and repair these systems! Nobody is going to want to do all that work for free. How would such a system be organized without central planning?
    People would be educated, they would be aware of what needs to be done and the benefits of cooperation. People are more than happy for opportunities to put their diverse expertise to use in meaningful ways and be recognised for their contributions.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    But the market is bringing these people jobs! Its helping these areas grow! And we need the oil because countless people would be put out of work and live in squallar if it werent for fracking.
    This "people need jobs" hysteria is hiding the real needs: food, water, shelter, space, human contact etc. What the third world countries are lacking is not "jobs", it is cohesion and organisation. Outside intervention from capitalist countries seeking resources very often go counter to this. In these countries, it would be better to set up self-sustaining communities for providing for the basic needs of everyone than to boost competitive production for "economic development" -- an approach that enhances inequalities, is damaging to the environment and not sustainable in the long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    But the struggle is a necessary evil. Thats how you get the best contributors. Millionaires and billionaires don't come out of nowhere. Often they pull themselves up by their boot straps, contribute something big, and they earn their wealth! Look at Steve Jobs, his contributions are vast and he was rich!
    Struggle is a natural part of life, but it is not "evil". If you want to achieve something significant, you have to struggle -- this has nothing to do with money, it has to do with the harsh physical reality. I am sure people will love to take up challenges and achieve great things without the money incentive.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    Historically, every time a job has been replaced by machines, new jobs comes in to replace the lost labor. This is precisely what happened during the industrial revolution. The jobs just move to a new field of labor. In the future, people will get paid to fix these machines.
    Progress in computing has been following an exponential trend. If this continues, this means that, very soon, not only machines will do very complex tasks better than humans, but they will be able to repair other machines. Perhaps machines will never be able to perform Arts, so people's activities will be displaced in such directions, but Arts do not feed the "economy". However if automation guarantees all basic needs, there is no need for an economy based on "labour".
    Last edited by Phil; 08-31-2016 at 04:44 AM.
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    To be honest, you've pretty much stumped me there. I can't go much further without using logical fallacies or turning into Stefan Molyneux. Good responses. Now its time for me to pose a couple more common arguments used by the pro-market Eichmann. How is an RBE not just rehashed marxism/communism?

    Both seek to eliminate private property and commerce.

    Both seek to provide all of the necessities of life to everyone without a pricetag.

    Both seek to achieve a stateless society without people on the top lording over others.

    Everytime such a society was attempted, it always turned into an oppressive dictatorship because the power is centralized.
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    Here's my perspective on these repeated type of arguments.


    1. Does this really happen though? Business Owners taking care of their Customers/Workers? It all sounds great but when we look at all the issues that come up from this set-up, don't we see many other things happening that refute this idea making it basically a Hypothetical scenario or even Hypocritical. Because if this were true, we should have Many More satisfied people in what their jobs pay & Customers in the Prices of goods. But yet we still see a lot of disgruntled people in the Economy.

    2. This question does not apply to an NLRBE because it is not one run by some Leader or some type of State Government. So when people use this type of argument, they are basically showing that they are lacking a Real Understanding of how a NLRBE System is trying to operate. These type of arguments are just part of the Repeated narrative of fear against Communist, Socialist Models that automatically puts Anything not resembling Capitalism in this sphere.

    3. I guess this can be true under a Capitalist System because it's a Consumer/Material/Comparative Economy so people are seen as doing "better" when they have more stuff. But yet someone can have cheap goods, (eg. cellphones, refrigerators, and televisions) but still feel like they are living in Poverty so having more stuff doesn't necessarily mean one is out of Poverty. For someone to experience a Life without Poverty, I would say that the necessary Human Needs, (e.g. Housing, Food, Energy etc..) would have to be prevalent in that persons Life for them not to feel like they are Poor. And only a NLRBE is trying to Provide & Guarantee these Needs to the people.

    4. Yes Capitalism has been good for many people & Countries but at the same time, has Hurt and continues to cause Suffering throughout the World. The problem we have here is that Capitalist Apologist only want to talk about all the good things that are produced from this System and disregard all the problems that come with it as inevitable consequences that will happen to some people but it shouldn't deter us from pursuing more growth. Again it takes our belief that Human Morality will overcome our problems by bringing about a type of Capitalism that will be good for Everyone regardless of where they are economically.

    5. What motivates people to do anything? I would say people's Interest, Needs, Questions, Responsibilities, Desires, Health, Happiness and the list goes on and on. If you remove the Work/Pay arrangement we have today, will these feelings disappear from our psyche and turn us into Lazy Unmotivated people who just sit around and do nothing? Of course Not! Because we will never be a perfect World and living in a NLRBE System will always need to be Worked on to ensure its Efficiency/Sustainability. There would just be too many aspects in this whole Civilization that would Motivate people to want to reach a level of satisfaction in their lives that would keep them pursuing whatever it is that helps foster a productive System for them in all parts of Life.
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    As the Industrial revolution (and now the tech revolution) occurred and productivity steadily increased....equal SHARING of the the wealth generated with those who actually created it (workers and consumers) lessend and the gap between the haves and have nots increased to the point of our current predicament.....an ongoing, intensely heated, and largely misunderstood battle between Labor and Capitalists....a battle without a JUBILEE at its end as long as the capitalists are in control. The capita;its see nothing wrong with proclaiming 'ownership' of the Earth, which when rationally dissected and investigated, is absurd and counter productive......yet it continues unabated.....

    SHARING the wealth that is currently 'stolen' from us all would increase 'leisure' for those of us who currently 'slave' in unsatisfactory 'JOBS'....allowing for a renaissance to occur beyond our wildest imaginations .....IMHO
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    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    Now its time for me to pose a couple more common arguments used by the pro-market Eichmann. How is an RBE not just rehashed marxism/communism?

    Both seek to eliminate private property and commerce.

    Both seek to provide all of the necessities of life to everyone without a pricetag.

    Both seek to achieve a stateless society without people on the top lording over others.

    Everytime such a society was attempted, it always turned into an oppressive dictatorship because the power is centralized.
    I would be delighted if someone else could answer this, as I am not so good at history -- I am more oriented towards the future.

    From my own limited perspective, I would say this:

    - I don't think it's true that such societies failed every time -- I think one can rather say they were overpowered by other, more aggressive societies. Many hunter-gatherer societies to me look like open/sharing economies on a small scale.

    - We should completely rethink the idea in view of modernity (as is done in TZM defined) -- not only technologies such as new materials, robotics and the Internet but also the improving levels of basic education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H0arx0r View Post
    Both seek to provide all of the necessities of life to everyone without a pricetag.

    Both seek to achieve a stateless society without people on the top lording over others.
    I don't see what the big deal is about these 2. These sound like they can be supported by Anyone no matter what their Background is.

    How about if we start asking this. What are some Similarities between Capitalism and marxism/communism/Socialism?

    1. Scarcity
    2. Market Systems
    3. Money
    4. Governments
    5. Political Parties
    6. Corporations, Companies ?
    7. Slave-Wage
    8. Authority
    9. Limitations
    10. Environmental Degradation
    11. People still getting Skrewed ... and so on

    The point being that all these different Economic Systems will have their Similarities within them also.
    Last edited by Ernest; 09-06-2016 at 05:04 PM. Reason: spelling check
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    The main difference between socialism and RBE is the automation of the workforce and all other components of society. if you don't believe in it you're a socialist(nothing wrong with that) , if you do believe in it you're a RBEist or whatever we call it.
    its the main difference in terms of ideology - socialist/communists are obsessed with the working class, but in RBE we want to raise the unemployment rate to 100% and eliminate all jobs.
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