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Thread: Accidental (or intentional) injuries and compensation

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    Accidental (or intentional) injuries and compensation

    When someone is injured through fault of another in a cashless society, and suffers a life-long handicap due to the injury, how will compensation be awarded? Just say sorry? "Oh I'm sorry about your legs, my bad. I didn't mean to bump into you and cause you to fall down that flight of stairs. Well, you take care now. I'm going to play some golf." If someone is awarded damages, what form would it take and who makes the decision?

    Suppose awarded damages are not enough and the injured seeks retribution. Would that necessitate a need for a criminal justice system? What form would the punishment take? Obviously, taking things away only causes scarcity and more crime, so how would punishment be possible? If punishment is not possible, then retribution is sanctioned.

    What about marriage, divorce, infidelity and domestic violence resulting from that? What punishment? Who decides? What about divorce where kids are involved. Who decides who gets custody and making decisions about raising the kids? What if the other party is angry at the decision and seeks retribution?

    What about pranksters who cause damages? Boys will be boys!

    Domestic violence is a leading crime and most of the time it results from perceived disrespect or insult rather than scarcity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SophicDrippins View Post
    When someone is injured through fault of another in a cashless society, and suffers a life-long handicap due to the injury, how will compensation be awarded? Just say sorry? "Oh I'm sorry about your legs, my bad. I didn't mean to bump into you and cause you to fall down that flight of stairs. Well, you take care now. I'm going to play some golf." If someone is awarded damages, what form would it take and who makes the decision?

    Suppose awarded damages are not enough and the injured seeks retribution. Would that necessitate a need for a criminal justice system? What form would the punishment take? Obviously, taking things away only causes scarcity and more crime, so how would punishment be possible? If punishment is not possible, then retribution is sanctioned.

    What about marriage, divorce, infidelity and domestic violence resulting from that? What punishment? Who decides? What about divorce where kids are involved. Who decides who gets custody and making decisions about raising the kids? What if the other party is angry at the decision and seeks retribution?

    What about pranksters who cause damages? Boys will be boys!

    Domestic violence is a leading crime and most of the time it results from perceived disrespect or insult rather than scarcity.
    I guess the assumption/presumption is that people will eventually be so controlled and docile to the point where such an event won’t happen. That which is intentional won’t happen and that which is accidental may happen but it is rare. In the most perfect case scenario, accidents simply won’t occur. The problem with that though is that I believe that is impossible because there really is no such thing as perfection when one thinks about machines, robots, computers, et cetera. I believe there is something invisible in the physics or the physical properties of all things even things that can appear identical to the human naked eye say like for example, two computer screens placed side-by-side for comparison or contrasting purposes. In addition, I have doubts that even a microscope can see everything. There will always be a defective or lemon product somewhere somehow. All that has been said will likely be on the more advanced stages of TZM/RBE (in terms of progressing/moving to/towards it).

    You are likely correct when it comes to the transition phase or what can be called the adjustment phase. That particular phase/stage would very, very likely be a long one because that is the phase/stage in which it is akin to a testing phase/stage where the most resistance to TZM/RBE would likely occur maybe not on a conscious level but more so on the subconscious level (because people may still have past memories on the beauty of freedom, the greatness of the individual, and independence that they want to hold on to). I highly doubt that the supporters/proponents of TZM/RBE would even be able to get to the transition phase simply because there are a lot of wealthy people with bodyguards and the best security money can buy and because the monetary system is so firmly or tightly established, it is extremely hard to get rid of it entirely.

    The desire for TZM/RBE fails to recognize the intertwinement of juxtapositions such as perfection and imperfection as well as love and hate. The desire to want to achieve a utopian or close to utopian state doesn’t take into account the natural imperfections that exists in reality which can never be eliminated or adjusted. The desire to want to get rid of hate (or even just mere dislike) will create a society that doesn’t understand what love is, is under-appreciative of what love is, and perhaps can create a more nihilistic or meaningless world society. Both love and hate are locked in together in that it is actually stupid to assume that love itself can function without the existence of hate/dislike. When you love someone or something, it means that there is another realm (perhaps in your mind) that consists of things you hate or dislike that you might not be fully conscious of in the same way that when you hate or dislike someone or something, there is another realm that consists of things you love.
    "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science." - Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    I guess the assumption/presumption is that people will eventually be so controlled and docile to the point where such an event won’t happen. That which is intentional won’t happen and that which is accidental may happen but it is rare. In the most perfect case scenario, accidents simply won’t occur. The problem with that though is that I believe that is impossible because there really is no such thing as perfection when one thinks about machines, robots, computers, et cetera. I believe there is something invisible in the physics or the physical properties of all things even things that can appear identical to the human naked eye say like for example, two computer screens placed side-by-side for comparison or contrasting purposes. In addition, I have doubts that even a microscope can see everything. There will always be a defective or lemon product somewhere somehow. All that has been said will likely be on the more advanced stages of TZM/RBE (in terms of progressing/moving to/towards it).

    You are likely correct when it comes to the transition phase or what can be called the adjustment phase. That particular phase/stage would very, very likely be a long one because that is the phase/stage in which it is akin to a testing phase/stage where the most resistance to TZM/RBE would likely occur maybe not on a conscious level but more so on the subconscious level (because people may still have past memories on the beauty of freedom, the greatness of the individual, and independence that they want to hold on to). I highly doubt that the supporters/proponents of TZM/RBE would even be able to get to the transition phase simply because there are a lot of wealthy people with bodyguards and the best security money can buy and because the monetary system is so firmly or tightly established, it is extremely hard to get rid of it entirely.

    The desire for TZM/RBE fails to recognize the intertwinement of juxtapositions such as perfection and imperfection as well as love and hate. The desire to want to achieve a utopian or close to utopian state doesn’t take into account the natural imperfections that exists in reality which can never be eliminated or adjusted. The desire to want to get rid of hate (or even just mere dislike) will create a society that doesn’t understand what love is, is under-appreciative of what love is, and perhaps can create a more nihilistic or meaningless world society. Both love and hate are locked in together in that it is actually stupid to assume that love itself can function without the existence of hate/dislike. When you love someone or something, it means that there is another realm (perhaps in your mind) that consists of things you hate or dislike that you might not be fully conscious of in the same way that when you hate or dislike someone or something, there is another realm that consists of things you love.
    When I think about the movement, first and foremost I think about Jacque's account of the great depression.. all the factories being idle while people starve. I think about the great division of wealth that exists today and think how silly that is. I never envisioned, miraculously, that people would suddenly have the morality of gods, just that they could be a little less stupid. No, a utopia will never exist because people will never be perfect.

    We have more abundance today than in the past, and people haven't gotten much nicer. 100 yrs from now we'll have exponentially more abundance, but people will still be self-serving animals. I have a theory that morality has devolved in spite of the abundance we have and the reason more crime exists with the blacks in the inner-cities is because they are too "fat". A well-fed people gets bored and starts war. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. Probably why the Amish have rejected abundance. People who spend their time working for a living don't have the time for mischief. So it would seem that making life harder on people would lead to better character.

    But class-division isn't an answer either and peasants eventually overthrow those regimes. Any system of government will eventually lead to its own demise. What I see in the future is automation and a dumb mass of people unable to do technical jobs, even if there were enough to go around. As the welfare burden increases, then it's a question of when the few remaining workers revolt and collapse the monetary system.

    Nationalism is threatening to halt this process by decreasing the efficiency of manufacturing by artificially taxing products made efficiently while subsidizing products made inefficiently and with costly labor and outdated equipment. Instead of abolishing money altogether, we've decided to prop-up the system for a while longer. But that won't end the technological development in China... it just handicaps the progress in the US by rewarding inefficiency. In light of that, China will likely lead the way forward. 300 million people sitting in a safe space probably can't compete against 4 billion globalists who already have large, unoccupied, cities built and who knows what else. The socialists will win, it's just a question of when. So, eventually, we're going to have to face the questions brought about by RBE. We may kick, scream, and delay it as much as possible, but technology is seeing to its eventual arrival.

    A century ago, 100lbs of sugar costs 10 hours of labor (based on median income). Today, it's 1 hour of labor. A century from now, it will be 6 minutes of labor. A century more will be 36 seconds. A century more will be .36 seconds. Eventually, it's zero and the only thing to stop it is an artificial tax specifically to keep it from hitting zero. There is no reason to believe sugar would ever go up in terms of labor when the production of sugar can only get more efficient as time goes on. This is true for all products except for what are called "investment assets" (such as stocks, gold, houses, etc) which go up in terms of labor as time moves forward. But as the cost of necessities in terms of labor go down sufficiently, I don't see a reason for investments to retain any value (ie. why do you need more money when everything you "need" is so close to being free?).

    No matter how you slice it, money is an antiquated concept. When money loses value, the rich will have no power. Money can only lose value by abundance of necessities, so there will be no commodity in which the rich can flee to replace their money and retain their power. So, if the rich wish to retain power, they have to stop the progression of technological efficiency by instituting nationalism and taxing efficient manufacturing. That seems to be where we are right now. After all, what fun is it being rich if there is no one to be richer than?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophicDrippins View Post
    When someone is injured through fault of another in a cashless society, and suffers a life-long handicap due to the injury, how will compensation be awarded? Just say sorry? "Oh I'm sorry about your legs, my bad. I didn't mean to bump into you and cause you to fall down that flight of stairs. Well, you take care now. I'm going to play some golf." If someone is awarded damages, what form would it take and who makes the decision?

    Suppose awarded damages are not enough and the injured seeks retribution. Would that necessitate a need for a criminal justice system? What form would the punishment take? Obviously, taking things away only causes scarcity and more crime, so how would punishment be possible? If punishment is not possible, then retribution is sanctioned.

    What about marriage, divorce, infidelity and domestic violence resulting from that? What punishment? Who decides? What about divorce where kids are involved. Who decides who gets custody and making decisions about raising the kids? What if the other party is angry at the decision and seeks retribution?

    What about pranksters who cause damages? Boys will be boys!

    Domestic violence is a leading crime and most of the time it results from perceived disrespect or insult rather than scarcity.
    First they would receive the highest quality treatment available to them that can even possibly heal their injuries over time. No damages would need to be awarded because they would already be awarded by Living in such an excellent Socioeconomic Environment. If cause for injury was intentional, then there would be some form of Justice area investigating this case. But it too should be based on a Scientific, Logical investigation rather than on Man-Made set Laws. Who ever is guilty of this type of behavior would then need to be Treated by whatever Scientifically proven methods have been shown to work. Retribution & Punishment don't really address or solve these situations. These are more about Feelings/Emotions/Endorsing Violence rather than Logical/Reasonable/Preventative Measures.

    Marriage is between the family to decide their futures. Domestic Violence needs to be investigated and treated just like all other forms of Violence. The area specific to Family Welfare could look into these matters of course with all the valid Scientific knowledge available.

    "What about pranksters who cause damages? Boys will be boys!"

    We would then have to direct that Energy to more productive means such as Learning, Creating, Exploring ....

    "Domestic violence is a leading crime and most of the time it results from perceived disrespect or insult rather than scarcity."

    Domestic Violence today results from peoples lack of Communication, Understanding each other. Life's problems are not truly dealt with so they fester & grow until they explode and are taken out on each other through Arguments & Violence. But Domestic Violence mostly is the result of deeper Socioeconomic factors, Scarcity included. And Disrespect/Insult are just some of the kinds of reactions it generates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    (because people may still have past memories on the beauty of freedom, the greatness of the individual, and independence that they want to hold on to).
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - anyone Awake

    A lot of the questions you guys ask assume that we are talking about Utopia here. Just like you, no one honestly believes in an absolute perfect World. Just one that can be a lot Different & Better than anything we have Today. And that depends on how we oversee the management of the Earth's Resources. Humans would still need to live & work together so we would still have similar issues that would arise but the way we can deal with them Doesn't have to be what we do Today. With More access to the Necessities of Life, our problems can be treated in a much more Well-Informed matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    First they would receive the highest quality treatment available to them that can even possibly heal their injuries over time. No damages would need to be awarded because they would already be awarded by Living in such an excellent Socioeconomic Environment. If cause for injury was intentional, then there would be some form of Justice area investigating this case. But it too should be based on a Scientific, Logical investigation rather than on Man-Made set Laws. Who ever is guilty of this type of behavior would then need to be Treated by whatever Scientifically proven methods have been shown to work. Retribution & Punishment don't really address or solve these situations. These are more about Feelings/Emotions/Endorsing Violence rather than Logical/Reasonable/Preventative Measures.

    Marriage is between the family to decide their futures. Domestic Violence needs to be investigated and treated just like all other forms of Violence. The area specific to Family Welfare could look into these matters of course with all the valid Scientific knowledge available.

    "What about pranksters who cause damages? Boys will be boys!"

    We would then have to direct that Energy to more productive means such as Learning, Creating, Exploring ....

    "Domestic violence is a leading crime and most of the time it results from perceived disrespect or insult rather than scarcity."

    Domestic Violence today results from peoples lack of Communication, Understanding each other. Life's problems are not truly dealt with so they fester & grow until they explode and are taken out on each other through Arguments & Violence. But Domestic Violence mostly is the result of deeper Socioeconomic factors, Scarcity included. And Disrespect/Insult are just some of the kinds of reactions it generates.
    Oh, I was under the impression there would be no police force. Ok, if there are cops and punishments, then that answers a lot of questions.

    What if Joe accidentally bumps into Bob who falls down some stairs and breaks his back, then can never walk again and even RBE can't fix it. How will Joe compensate Bob if he has nothing to give? (He can't have anything to give because Bob already has everything that exists, except his back.) What if Bob gets mad and pushes Joe down some stairs in retribution?

    These sorts of squabbles would be constant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    First they would receive the highest quality treatment available to them that can even possibly heal their injuries over time. No damages would need to be awarded because they would already be awarded by Living in such an excellent Socioeconomic Environment. If cause for injury was intentional, then there would be some form of Justice area investigating this case. But it too should be based on a Scientific, Logical investigation rather than on Man-Made set Laws. Who ever is guilty of this type of behavior would then need to be Treated by whatever Scientifically proven methods have been shown to work. Retribution & Punishment don't really address or solve these situations. These are more about Feelings/Emotions/Endorsing Violence rather than Logical/Reasonable/Preventative Measures.

    Marriage is between the family to decide their futures. Domestic Violence needs to be investigated and treated just like all other forms of Violence. The area specific to Family Welfare could look into these matters of course with all the valid Scientific knowledge available.

    "What about pranksters who cause damages? Boys will be boys!"

    We would then have to direct that Energy to more productive means such as Learning, Creating, Exploring ....

    "Domestic violence is a leading crime and most of the time it results from perceived disrespect or insult rather than scarcity."

    Domestic Violence today results from peoples lack of Communication, Understanding each other. Life's problems are not truly dealt with so they fester & grow until they explode and are taken out on each other through Arguments & Violence. But Domestic Violence mostly is the result of deeper Socioeconomic factors, Scarcity included. And Disrespect/Insult are just some of the kinds of reactions it generates.
    Oh, I was under the impression there would be no police force. Ok, if there are cops and punishments, then that answers a lot of questions.

    What if Joe accidentally bumps into Bob who falls down some stairs and breaks his back, then can never walk again and even RBE can't fix it. How will Joe compensate Bob if he has nothing to give? (He can't have anything to give because Bob already has everything that exists, except his back.) What if Bob gets mad and pushes Joe down some stairs in retribution?

    These sorts of squabbles would be constant.

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    A few quick thoughts on this issues:

    1. How do we deal with this kind of problem now?

    2. Why do we deal with this kind of problem the way we do, now?

    3. Is the situation the same in an "RBE" as it is now, or are there some differences between the two types of societies?

    4. Suppose we do live in an "RBE" where we don't need money to buy things or jobs to make money; what's the use getting monetary compensation from someone else for anything? What are they going to do with that money?

    5. In our present-day situation, what if the person who unintentionally causes the accident is totally broke, owns nothing, and has nothing to offer up for compensation? Should they be forced to become the person's butler?

    6: Would stairs still exist? If so, why? From what I recall, stairs are an example of what JF talked about as something that can be improved upon because of this sort of thing (people can even fall without being pushed).

    7. Is something like this a reason to say "oh darn" and bring the so-called transition to a screeching halt?
    Last edited by Neil; 11-10-2016 at 08:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    A few quick thoughts on this issues:

    1. How do we deal with this kind of problem now?

    2. Why do we deal with this kind of problem the way we do, now?

    3. Is the situation the same in an "RBE" as it is now, or are there some differences between the two types of societies?

    4. Suppose we do live in an "RBE" where we don't need money to buy things or jobs to make money; what's the use getting monetary compensation from someone else for anything? What are they going to do with that money?

    5. In our present-day situation, what if the person who unintentionally causes the accident is totally broke, owns nothing, and has nothing to offer up for compensation? Should they be forced to become the person's butler?

    6: Would stairs still exist? If so, why? From what I recall, stairs are an example of what JF talked about as something that can be improved upon because of this sort of thing (people can even fall without being pushed).

    7. Is something like this a reason to say "oh darn" and bring the so-called transition to a screeching halt?
    I would assume, since monetary compensation is unnecessary in a RBE and all material and personal injuries are fixed for free, the only variable to contend with is retribution for an injury or death that can't be repaired.

    Thus, in the case where someone is guilty of intentionally, or through negligence, injuring someone beyond repair, the only punishment left (if you rightly outlaw barbaric corporal punishment and restriction of resources) is prison time.

    Corporal punishment is barbaric. Restriction of resources might inspire crime.

    So I'm thinking just restrict their freedom of movement for an amount of time commensurable to the offense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsir View Post
    I would assume, since monetary compensation is unnecessary in a RBE and all material and personal injuries are fixed for free, the only variable to contend with is retribution for an injury or death that can't be repaired.

    Thus, in the case where someone is guilty of intentionally, or through negligence, injuring someone beyond repair, the only punishment left (if you rightly outlaw barbaric corporal punishment and restriction of resources) is prison time.

    Corporal punishment is barbaric. Restriction of resources might inspire crime.

    So I'm thinking just restrict their freedom of movement for an amount of time commensurable to the offense?
    Even today, if something was an accident, we don't inflict any kind of punishment or penalty on people in the form of a fine, jail time, etc. In some cases there's property damage and insurance companies pay for it; but in an "RBE" that won't matter because it would conceptually be obsolete. In an "RBE", if something was unintentional, then I think we can simply keep the status quo. So at this point, the only question I guess is whether something was intentional, what we can do is first determine how likely is it that something intentional will happen.

    These days, many intentional attacks (muggings, armed robbery, etc.) are directly the result of scarcity & they won't happen for that reason in an "RBE"; some things could be indirectly the result of scarcity, such as riots. Many riots can be tied back to scarcity, such as union protests that get violent; in an "RBE" unions would be obsolete, because there's no longer a need for a labor force thus they no longer need to band together to make the kinds of demands they make now, anymore. Union laborers will no longer need their jobs, because conceptually everything they pay for with the money they make from their jobs would be free, meaning no point fighting to keep their jobs anymore, etc.

    With the current oil pipeline protests happening now, in North Dakota, there are ways of looking at that situation as intentional fighting that would go away. The first is that the people who live there need to get their water from a resource that can be contaminated if or when problems with the oil pipeline happen, and the other is that the company trying to install that pipeline is going to want to set it up one place or another; they're probably going with the least expensive place to set it up, and if they had to go with setting it up somewhere that would appease everyone it would probably be very expensive. One solution is to get water to the people who live there so they're no longer dependent on the existing water resources that they have access to, without them having to pay for it to be brought over to them; if that were done, they would no longer be fighting to stop the installation of the oil pipeline for that reason, which is what an "RBE" could do. Another solution that an "RBE" could offer is to eliminate the need for so much energy to be transferred to the oil pipeline's destination, or at least eliminate the practical need for the route it's going to take. A route that would be more expensive today might be doable in an "RBE". Maybe the oil is being transferred to a location where there's an oil refinery, and maybe the oil refinery is where it is now because of the price of property and availability of manual labor; if that's the case we know how an "RBE" could resolve that situation. These are just examples & in reality the actual solutions that are implemented might be something else.

    The point is that most intentional fighting or incidents that lead to permanent injuries or killings will likely go away in an "RBE". I wouldn't expect it to get perfect, but who ever said life is fair? If things can be done to improve the situation, why not look into it? That's what it's about, to me.
    Last edited by Neil; 11-10-2016 at 10:36 AM.
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