Page 2 of 14 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 138
Like Tree122Likes

Thread: How would it be decided who lives where?

  1. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Geneva
    Posts
    197
    There exists a piece in "The mechanics of a free society" by Colin Turner on resolving disputes by what he calls "creative arbitration", which I like very much:

    No matter how well we design and create the kind of world we want to see, there will always be disputes among people, whether over relationships, personal beliefs, or claims on land or property. That is just part of the deal with being human. We aren't perfect – so it's best to begin by accepting that fact!

    By far the most crucial instrument in resolving disputes is speed. Unresolved problems create stress, animosity and compound fear. These are the explosive ingredients of aggression and war, so the sooner a solution is found, the better.

    Where people are unable to find solutions themselves, it would seem reasonable for both parties to nominate an independent arbitrator whom they both trust to help them reach a solution. (The arbitrator can be anyone from the community who is willing to help)

    But let's define what we mean by 'solution'. In today's world, resolutions are usually reached using the law or courts to decide. It almost always come down to a binary choice where one side wins and the other loses. There's nothing wrong with this in theory, but to create a lasting, stable society, no-one should ever need to be the loser.

    For example, if two parties A and B are arguing over property rights, and an arbitrator – acting in the interest of the community – decides that A is the more deserving claimant, it may please A and the community, but still leaves B the loser. Even though B may accept that resolution, they are left with a sense of personal injustice and/or embarrassment that can ferment into one of the previously mentioned ingredients of aggression. This is unnecessary.

    In a free society, we should never settle for a resolution that leaves even one person marginalised. This is a limited view. There is always a creative solution that brings an optimal – and preferably superior – outcome for everyone, and nothing should be considered solved until such a solution is found.

    Once the limits of traditional society are lifted, much more solutions become available. For example, why would someone want to claim your house if they could readily organise an even better one for themselves elsewhere?

    Creative Arbitration is about finding an amazing solution that makes all parties happier than before. We shouldn't settle for less. The best persons to be elected to assist in dispute resolution ought not necessarily to be those most wise, but those most flexible and creative in problem-solving.
    See the full text here:
    http://freeworlder.org/blogs/item/81...a-free-society
    droneBEE and HAL9000 like this.

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northwest Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,126
    While striving to discuss, design, communally take fruit, and finally take up residence in a 'future' RBE community...we must also strive to eliminate what is keeping us from advancing in the direction we claim to seek.......human GREED, desire for instant gratification, anal, narcissistic behavior's....instead, refocusing our efforts on practicing kindness FIRST in our interactions. Can enough of us come together to set the type of examples needed to bring the rest of the world along?

    Will it be easy? As any History buff knows......Change of this sort (bottom/up) has never been easy...especially for those on the bottom....

    With only a minute amount of time spent observing our current state of affairs.....its gonna be a while yet, likely several more generations of struggle, wars, LAND grabs, ACCESS and/or resources denied etc.....making these kinds of discussions all the more important for those of us seeking alternatives.

    Besides the www; Are there any better ways to SPREAD THE WORD? How can TZM, or the concept of a RBE compete with 'cute puppy' videos? How can we grow our numbers? How can we attract those who are willing to put their necks out, to make the sacrifices needed to advance?

    THANKS TO ALL WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN THIS DISCUSSION and asking such GREAT QUESTIONS!!! ....and offering such insightful answers
    Last edited by droneBEE; 02-29-2016 at 05:59 AM.
    HAL9000 and YouTuber like this.

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northwest Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,126
    Quote Originally Posted by YaseaP View Post
    H

    That new paradigm of renting all land, although there are many benefits, is completely based on a monetary system and would be pretty useless in the case of a moneyless RBE.

    "Completely based on a monetary system" is an assumption forcing the question....have you read the book?

    Once the CON is clearly understood by the masses (via a source like the book LAND).......Would/could such an economic tweaking NOT become a relatively small, easily adapted solution, (the world's bean counter's already keep pretty good track of 'who' owns what afterall, no?)....and could become one simple step toward the 'global' (it must be global my friends) TRANSITION to a fair and SHARING economy?

    We can all worry about eliminating money (and the 'value WE place on it) after the ROOT is destroyed......jus saying.....

  4. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    653
    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post

    Besides the www; Are there any better ways to SPREAD THE WORD? How can TZM, or the concept of a RBE compete with 'cute puppy' videos? How can we grow our numbers? How can we attract those who are willing to put their necks out, to make the sacrifices needed to advance?
    While i get your point, right now i don't see the necessity of 'spreading the word', or growing in numbers. if we want to live in a RBE society we should just go ahead and implement it, its that simple. the rest of the people can do whatever they want, if they love the current system - great, i don't see a problem with that.

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    653
    Quote Originally Posted by SophicDrippins View Post
    How will it be decided who lives in the best spots?
    What is the solution?
    a coin toss. random coin toss is justice.

  6. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Geneva
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    While i get your point, right now i don't see the necessity of 'spreading the word', or growing in numbers. if we want to live in a RBE society we should just go ahead and implement it, its that simple. the rest of the people can do whatever they want, if they love the current system - great, i don't see a problem with that.
    The problem I see is that they won't let you. For instance they will say the place you want to settle belongs to some people/commune/state and send armed guys to force you to leave. We need a majority first if we want to implement a RBE.
    YouTuber likes this.

  7. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    653
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    The problem I see is that they won't let you. For instance they will say the place you want to settle belongs to some people/commune/state and send armed guys to force you to leave. We need a majority first if we want to implement a RBE.
    fair point. but i'm not suggesting taking anything by force or doing something illegal; we could work it out within the framework of the state and the monetary system initially.
    another thing - the craziest thing about it is that there is no "they" - its an illusion, nobody's in charge, all we have is people acting on their self interest.

    to give a few examples: elon musk didn't ask permission from anyone to produce electric cars, or to send rockets to orbit. he just did it.
    uber didn't ask permission from taxi drivers before they launch their app. and there are many other examples.

    in some bizarre and ironic way, the so called "elite" are waiting for people to invent new stuff, try new ideas and do away with the current system. i believe that deep inside everyone in this world knows that there’s something wrong with our society today, but they can't act on it because of conflicting interests. imagine a drug addict who can't stop, but he's literally waiting for someone to smack him and take away his drugs.
    YouTuber likes this.

  8. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    806
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    There exists a piece in "The mechanics of a free society" by Colin Turner on resolving disputes by what he calls "creative arbitration", which I like very much:

    See the full text here:
    http://freeworlder.org/blogs/item/81...a-free-society
    Thanks for that! It's an idea to consider.

    So let's play it out:

    I want X
    You want X
    X can't be replicated.
    We agree Bob should arbitrate.
    Bod decided you get X and offers me anything else as a consolation.
    I already have everything I want because everything is free. What can Bob offer me?

    That is similar to my other thread, where I asked the question of how compensation is made if someone is at fault in an accident. If you (accidentally or otherwise) cause Bob to fall down some stairs, causing the loss of his ability to walk, how will you make restitution? If everything is free, what do you have to give? (you = anyone reading this)

    Going back to the arbitration, even if I agree on the arbitrator, that doesn't mean I will see the decision as fair. I may not like his line of reasoning. If I don't see the decision as fair, I will have animosity which may fester into an action of crime. Now we need a police force and method of punishment. How do you punish me? If you take something away, then that scarcity causes me to devolve more. If you can't punish me, then all manner of crime is sanctioned. If I attack you and I'm not punished, then you will be mad and seek retaliation. Now we have two criminals on the loose.

    No matter how well we design and create the kind of world we want to see, there will always be disputes among people, whether over relationships, personal beliefs, or claims on land or property. That is just part of the deal with being human. We aren't perfect so it's best to begin by accepting that fact!
    A lot of problems have nothing to do with scarcity. If a man catches another man in bed with his wife and gets mad, what is he scarce of? Patience? Or is it the 2 inches that made the difference between him and her other lover that he is scarce of? Can we add a few inches for free? (This society is looking better and better all the time )

    Show me a rap song where the desire to cap someone resulted from a theft. It's always about disrespect. (scarcity of respect?)

    If disputes resulted from scarcity, then why did the coddled aristocrats have duels?

    If evil results from scarcity, then why are bankers the most evil? Are they rich because they are greedy or greedy because they are rich?

    Jacque said things are a system, like the airplane that needs fuel, air, pilot, wings, etc. He said there is no single cause for cancer. How then can there be a single cause for crime? Scarcity can't be the only variable.
    YouTuber likes this.

  9. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    806
    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    How can we grow our numbers?
    Big, ugly fight with Trump?

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    a coin toss. random coin toss is justice.
    That's not bad. I don't mean to never be satisfied, but:

    I want X
    You are holding X
    Logically, I am more entitled to X
    Coin toss is in your favor
    I still feel more entitled to X and I feel contempt for the method of decision.


    Suppose I want to divorce my wife, who gets the kids? Toss a coin? Maybe we could replicate the kids and give them to each?
    YouTuber likes this.

  10. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    806
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    The problem I see is that they won't let you. For instance they will say the place you want to settle belongs to some people/commune/state and send armed guys to force you to leave. We need a majority first if we want to implement a RBE.
    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    fair point. but i'm not suggesting taking anything by force or doing something illegal; we could work it out within the framework of the state and the monetary system initially.
    another thing - the craziest thing about it is that there is no "they" - its an illusion, nobody's in charge, all we have is people acting on their self interest.
    It's coming anyway. Here is a graph of a spreadsheet I put together illustrating prices in terms of hours worked:

    hrs worked1.jpghrs worked min1.jpg Sorry about the size. Size limits here are 97 kb

    The number of hours the average worker has to work to buy something, starting in 1913 when the fed was created. And the number of hours a person making minimum wage has to work to buy something, starting when minimum wage started in 1938.

    Home prices is the Case-Shiller home price index, not the actual prices of homes.

    The trend is down for most things. The exception are stocks, gold, copper. The trend for homes started as downward, but leveled ever since the 60s because homes went from being a staple to being an investment asset.

    It's kinda funny that sugar is the cheapest in terms of hours, whereas stocks are the most expensive. Even though prices of food items have gone up since 1999, sugar has been level. No wonder people are fat lol

    For instance, an average person would have to work 10 hours in 1913 to buy 100lbs of sugar. Today they only need to work 1 hour. A person making minimum wage in 1938 would need to work 17 hrs to buy 100lbs of sugar. Today, they would need to work only 3 hrs.

    In contrast, an average person would have to work 20 hrs to buy 1 share of the sp500 in 1913. Today, he would have to work 75 hrs (median income of $54,000/2000 hrs = $27/hr x 75 = 2025 sp500). Incredible price appreciation in stocks! A minimum wage person would have to work 50 hours in 1938 and 281 hours today. That's why the rich get richer.

    I want to add things like tvs, cars, radios, phones, movie tickets, etc. It's just hard finding the pricing on those things. I have little doubt that they will be down.

    This data backs what I thought... that things are getting cheaper as we get more productive and efficient. They have a name for it... "The neutrality of money" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_of_money

    If people are finding it harder to get by today than 30 yrs ago, then maybe they are reaching for luxury items too much because staples are cheaper than ever. Another possibility is they aren't working enough hours. If I had data for average SSI income, I'd like to figure that up. I'm guessing $1000/mo is ave and that's close to minimum wage. I doubt anyone making minimum pays taxes.

    Median income is before taxes, but it's actually "median household income" where a household is 4 people (man, woman, 2 kids) and one works. With 3 dependents, it doesn't seem like there would be much of a tax burden, but I have no data for that. Anyway, I doubt taxes would offset a 10 to 1 fall in sugar prices. http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...ressive-03.png

    Another thing to consider is the price of money (interest rates). Obviously, it's easier to manage a 4% mortgage today than a 15% mortgage of the 80s. I'm not sure how to factor that into my data though.

    So, if we continue the trend, a 10-fold drop in sugar price per 100 years means in another 100 years it will take the average person 6 minutes of working to buy 100lbs of sugar. Another 100 years would be 36 seconds and so on until we're talking nanoseconds. But I think it will be exponential and it won't take 200 yrs to reach 36 seconds.

Page 2 of 14 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
web statistics
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1