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Thread: Staunch disbelievers of the afterlife - Always the first to quit.

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    Staunch disbelievers of the afterlife - Always the first to quit.

    I mentioned the following in another thread but I felt it that important to start a new thread on this topic.

    As the founder of my local Zeitgeist Chapter as well as starting my own television show advocating for The Zeitgeist Movement, I've seen plenty of people come and go from our groups. In watching who stays and who leaves, I've noticed a very common trend emerge. The people who choose to stay (like most definitely myself) have a very strong resonation with the after-life. I would consider all of these people (myself included) to be very non-religious but very spiritual. We know deeply that we are here for a reason, that there is ultimate purpose and meaning to life and that regardless of whatever may happen to us on this planet, it's not gonna be the end of us because consciousness is eternal and therefore we live forever.

    On the other hand,I've noticed a very common trend among those who stay with our group for a little while and then quit on us. The trend that is very, very prevalent are people who are staunch disbelievers of the after-life and because of their reductionist materialism views, believe that life is simply an accident and that there is no higher meaning or purpose to why they are here. I've seen that not only will those people quit on us but they very usually end up becoming extremely cynical of the potential for the Resource Based/Natural Law Economy and I think, being fairly put, end up doing a lot more harm than good. I say that because becoming like that affects other people outside of this awareness.

    Without going into great detail again, because I've already done that in another thread, Reductionist Materialism has been proven to be false. There are huge gaping holes in that theory which is really completely outdated "science" dating back to over 200 years ago and since then, Quantum Physics, which has turned out to be a far greater predictor, has shot that theory full of holes so-to-speak. Another very important thing to mention is that there have been studies of the brains of different people where they were asked to read quotes from reductionist materialist "scientists" that basically said there is no after-life and that we're "only just a pack of neurons." What they've noticed from all these test subjects is that when they spoke these quotes, the parts of their brain that involved feelings of helplessness, despair (and basically an urge to quit on life) lit up like a five o'clock alarm. So I guess that's not surprising to me, that's certainly everything I've seen within the 2 groups that I founded. That also includes 1 person who was a part of our group but quit on us, who was a staunch reductionist materialist who killed himself just recently. I look at this mindset as it's basically a mental illness because mental illness affects the same part of the brain. How could it not be mental illness? Besides that, new science (Quantum Physics) can prove reductionist materialism as illogical, and to believe something that has been proven illogical is also a form of mental illness.

    The famous Bill Hicks quote says "All matter is merely condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, Life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves."

    This Bill Hicks quote, specifically spoken by Bill Hicks, has been in the Zeitgeist movies. Peter Joseph has also mentioned this quote a number of times as well as even used it in a lecture he gave. So it appears quite obvious that the founder of The Zeitgeist Movement himself understands that this IS a very necessary and critical component of the great paradigm shift. This IS at the central core of what The Zeitgeist Movement is about because if we ever make it to a Resource Based Economy, it's gonna take people actually believing that we can make it to that point and not just give up and quit because they find no higher meaning in their own life and then end up using their poison to affect other people that way.

    So to those of you who are reductionist materialists, I think it's good to have you all in TZM but please check your cynicism and disbelief at the door. Otherwise without having any faith or any hope, we're gonna kill ourselves.
    Last edited by Chris4629; 06-04-2015 at 05:43 AM.

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    Hmm ... that's interesting. I kind of see things the other way around. I would think that those who Don't believe in an afterlife would be more willing to fight for this Movement because they feel that it's the only Life they can experience.... No?

    I lean toward this side. To believe that we only get this chance to live this life to its fullest potential. To me a NLRBE offers that only chance we have so that is why I feel strongly about its mission.

    I consider myself a spiritual person and my life to have meaning. I believe also the we are here for a reason and that is to experience life like never before. A life Free of any type of bondage, e.g. Psychological, Biological, Economic, Political etc..

    I wouldn't say I completely disbelieve in an afterlife but just that can we ever know for sure if one exist? I would need to see some type of proof where someone maybe comes back from this afterlife with evidence to tell about or maybe someway to communicate directly to this afterlife. But until that happens, I believe for a lot of people, this concept might just be to inconceivable to wrap their minds around.

    It is an exciting topic to ponder about and to imagine the endless implications this has to the meaning of life. A Philosophical discussion that can go on forever. Or until we die and someone can return with a Fascinating story to share ....
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    I'm not so 'certain' about an afterlife…….but…….."Recognizing our inter-connectedness to the entire universe is fundamental to understanding our role in it"

    Denying or ignoring our inter-connectness with EVERYTHING and everyone does not make it less, it makes 'us' less (or is that useless?).

    IMHO; We Humans lost our way once we accepted the notion and belief that 'we' are something special, something separate from the rest of the cosmos. This 'belief' is how we have justified and accepted war, injustice and the dominance and ultimate destruction of our home, planet Earth. If 'we' don't turn it BACK (that's right, we 'need' to return 'emotionally' back to our tribal roots) we're all doomed (that's my opinion and until disproven it'll remain)…..and maybe……THAT will become the point of our very existence. ….just saying…. I don't know…..who does?

    In days past, most Tribal communities around the globe developed daily rituals to pay homage to this inter-connection (a few still do)…..until it was beaten out of them.



    Ah….I don't know what this has to do with the OP assertions regarding 'believers v non-believers' in the 'movement' - but after nearly 45 years of activism, I've pretty much ran the gambit of 'belief systems' humans can come up with as a means to cope with the world they find themselves.
    Last edited by droneBEE; 06-04-2015 at 06:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Hmm ... that's interesting. I kind of see things the other way around. I would think that those who Don't believe in an afterlife would be more willing to fight for this Movement because they feel that it's the only Life they can experience.... No?

    I lean toward this side. To believe that we only get this chance to live this life to its fullest potential. To me a NLRBE offers that only chance we have so that is why I feel strongly about its mission.

    I consider myself a spiritual person and my life to have meaning. I believe also the we are here for a reason and that is to experience life like never before. A life Free of any type of bondage, e.g. Psychological, Biological, Economic, Political etc..

    I wouldn't say I completely disbelieve in an afterlife but just that can we ever know for sure if one exist? I would need to see some type of proof where someone maybe comes back from this afterlife with evidence to tell about or maybe someway to communicate directly to this afterlife. But until that happens, I believe for a lot of people, this concept might just be to inconceivable to wrap their minds around.

    It is an exciting topic to ponder about and to imagine the endless implications this has to the meaning of life. A Philosophical discussion that can go on forever. Or until we die and someone can return with a Fascinating story to share ....
    Ernest, there have been billions of people (all accumulated) throughout our history who have had Near-Death Experiences. In fact, virtually all of us know somebody (I know several) who have had an NDE or at least know somebody else who knows someone who has had an NDE. Not only that but a good number of these people bring back veridical information that they should have had no possible way of knowing given the situation that they were in. Real science doesn't work by refusing to investigate the enormous number of all of these incidents by just using a blanket categorization of all of these as just an hallucination. That isn't real science an even a little child could understand that. The only way it can possibly be real science is if each one of these incidents were thoroughly investigated (separately) and then be able to be ruled out empirically. That is the basis for the scientific method and anything else outside of that is complete and utter nonsense. You can't possibly be using the Scientific Method by first drawing your conclusion and working your way backwards with your own cherry-picked evidence and even a 4 year old little child knows that.

    Just from an outside perspective before even delving into all of this, if you were to simply go based on probabilities alone (given the billions of people who have had NDEs) that probability wise, it's most likely a real thing. That's because of the mere enormous volume of these things that have happened.

    Case in point....Now it's very commonly accepted among mainstream science that there is life on other planets and even Neal Degrasse Tyson has said that "it is arrogantly inexcusable to claim that there is not life on other planets given the sheer enormous volume of planets out there that would have the potential for sustaining life." So what's the difference??

    You said in your post "Hmm ... that's interesting. I kind of see things the other way around. I would think that those who Don't believe in an afterlife would be more willing to fight for this Movement because they feel that it's the only Life they can experience.... No?"

    I would have to say definitely not. My question to you is how much involved are you with TZM? I have 2 groups in my area, both a meetup group that meets every Saturday as well as even have my own TV show where I advocate for towards a NLRBE. I put in at least 25-30 hours a week with this (in the real world) so what I'm saying here is based entirely upon extensive experience. How much time do you put into this and most importantly is there any group of people that you're a part of that advocates for the NLRBE? I think it's very fair to say that being on your computer on an internet forum like this is entirely different then actually being out there in the real world and trying to raise this awareness. So based upon extensive experience that I have, I know without any question that those people who choose to stay and become a really driving force behind what we're doing all have very strong resonation with continuation of consciousness after death (which is really a necessary component of spirituality.) Whereas those people who choose to bail out and quit on us are all staunch disbelievers of continuation of consciousness after death. I know this for a fact because this is a very common subject that comes up in our conversations and I can step back and watch the 2 types of people and see what they do.

    I'll say this again, being a staunch disbeliever of the afterlife is a form of mental illness. It has been scientifically proven that these held beliefs affect the same part of the brain that illicits feelings of helplessness, despair and it's outwardly shown as negativity and cynicism. We don't need this sickness within TZM because it does a whole lot more harm than good. It leads to cynicism in general and that affects other people outside of TZM and residing at the absolute most central core of all of this is gonna have to be the faith and belief that we can actually do this thing, otherwise we're gonna kill ourselves. So those of you who are staunch disbelievers, check your cynicism and disbelief at the door. We don't need your poison within all of this.

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    @ Chris4629; OK Man, the absolute 'certainty of your assertions' (that's all they really are bro) has become a bit offensive….to me anyway. You wanna be a believer in the afterlife, be one….but placing labels on those who might choose to challenge, disagree or enter into honest debate with you, as you've now done, has no place here IMHO.

    PLEASE; Let me suggest that your 'stated' experiences above, have maybe, perhaps, shown examples of a somewhat limited perspective that is just YOUR perspective.

    When one makes these kind of claims (that's what they are) regarding an 'afterlife' with 'certainty' it leaves little room for 'honest' discourse, discussion and debate, putting everyone on the defensive. Certainty of thought just pisses me off , it gets my goat. When someone tries to make a point, asking for dialogue, and then dishonors the kind of dialogue received ……well, what would you call that kind of behavior?

    "THE TRUTH DEPENDS ON WHERE ONE STANDS" (that may have come from Einstein )

    As an elder human being who's seen a lot, as an old Soldier, and as an activist/agitator for justice, I've personally experienced and witnessed 'near death' (and real death) too many times to live my life without it being nearby, standing ready to remind me.

    THAT - my friend, is what brings 'me' - and many of my brothers and sisters to this fight, a fight I've been an active 'participant' in for over 40 years (actually approaching 45).

    The battle's I'm waging for peace, justice and a more equitable world? It's NEVER had anything to do with a 'freakin afterlife'…… and I'm still here Man.
    Last edited by droneBEE; 06-04-2015 at 04:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    @ Chris4629; OK Man, the absolute 'certainty of your assertions' (that's all they really are bro) has become a bit offensive….to me anyway. You wanna be a believer in the afterlife, be one….but placing labels on those who might choose to challenge, disagree or enter into honest debate with you, as you've now done, has no place here IMHO.

    PLEASE; Let me suggest that your 'stated' experiences above, have maybe, perhaps, shown examples of a somewhat limited perspective that is just YOUR perspective.

    When one makes these kind of claims (that's what they are) regarding an 'afterlife' with 'certainty' it leaves little room for 'honest' discourse, discussion and debate, putting everyone on the defensive. Certainty of thought just pisses me off , it gets my goat. When someone tries to make a point, asking for dialogue, and then dishonors the kind of dialogue received ……well, what would you call that kind of behavior?

    "THE TRUTH DEPENDS ON WHERE ONE STANDS" (that may have come from Einstein )

    As an elder human being who's seen a lot, as an old Soldier, and as an activist/agitator for justice, I've personally experienced and witnessed 'near death' (and real death) too many times to live my life without it being nearby, standing ready to remind me.

    THAT - my friend, is what brings 'me' - and many of my brothers and sisters to this fight, a fight I've been an active 'participant' in for over 40 years (actually approaching 45).

    The battle's I'm waging for peace, justice and a more equitable world? It's NEVER had anything to do with a 'freakin afterlife'…… and I'm still here Man.
    You have a right to your own beliefs, I never said I had a problem with that or with anyone else. I'm responding to this lecture and video that should never have been a part of TZM in the first place (especially with the title of the speech being "The Scientific Method" which it most certainly is not)....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgTIeDo1io When I posted my first thread I had all kinds of people attack me because I explained very logically how it most definitely is not real science (or the scientific method.)

    I very logically explained that science has proven that the brains of people who hold onto beliefs like this are lit up like a 5 O'clock alarm in the regions of the brain that illicit feelings of despair, helplessness and the desire to quit and give up on life which is a factual statement. I think I very rationally explained how through my own extensive (real world) experience of advocating for the NLRBE how I've seen all kinds of people come and go from our groups and how those who have quit on us have all been very much so supportive of this scientific study.

    Real science is another word for truth, or the absolute closest approximation that we have ever come towards truth, which is what The Zeitgeist Movement is about, right? So I'll agree that science hasn't yet empirically proven that life after death is a reality but there is an enormous amount of overwhelming data that definitely supports this theory and simply refusing to examine the evidence and just resorting to name calling, needless to say is in no way in hell real science. So when I hear somebody give a lecture at something like Z Day under the name of The Zeitgeist Movement, without following the scientific method and try to call it "the scientific method" then I'm gonna step up to the plate and speak the truth that's within me and you can make bet on that. That's especially true when I devote so much of my time and passion into this.

    I'm also pointing out the very logically obvious to everyone in that the message in that Bill Hicks quote (regarding life being eternal) that has been used in the Zeitgeist movies as well as quoted repeatedly by Peter Joseph himself, means that that is part of The Zeitgeist Movement, so I'm saying to all the cynics, especially the Ryan Johnson kid at Z Day, don't try to remove that aspect of TZM with your own false science and claim that what you are doing is empirical science, if you do, I'm gonna call you out for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris4629 View Post
    You have a right to your own beliefs, I never said I had a problem with that or with anyone else. I'm responding to this lecture and video that should never have been a part of TZM in the first place (especially with the title of the speech being "The Scientific Method" which it most certainly is not)....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgTIeDo1io When I posted my first thread I had all kinds of people attack me because I explained very logically how it most definitely is not real science (or the scientific method.)

    I very logically explained that science has proven that the brains of people who hold onto beliefs like this are lit up like a 5 O'clock alarm in the regions of the brain that illicit feelings of despair, helplessness and the desire to quit and give up on life which is a factual statement. I think I very rationally explained how through my own extensive (real world) experience of advocating for the NLRBE how I've seen all kinds of people come and go from our groups and how those who have quit on us have all been very much so supportive of this scientific study.

    Real science is another word for truth, or the absolute closest approximation that we have ever come towards truth, which is what The Zeitgeist Movement is about, right? So I'll agree that science hasn't yet empirically proven that life after death is a reality but there is an enormous amount of overwhelming data that definitely supports this theory and simply refusing to examine the evidence and just resorting to name calling, needless to say is in no way in hell real science. So when I hear somebody give a lecture at something like Z Day under the name of The Zeitgeist Movement, without following the scientific method and try to call it "the scientific method" then I'm gonna step up to the plate and speak the truth that's within me and you can make bet on that. That's especially true when I devote so much of my time and passion into this.

    I'm also pointing out the very logically obvious to everyone in that the message in that Bill Hicks quote (regarding life being eternal) that has been used in the Zeitgeist movies as well as quoted repeatedly by Peter Joseph himself, means that that is part of The Zeitgeist Movement, so I'm saying to all the cynics, especially the Ryan Johnson kid at Z Day, don't try to remove that aspect of TZM with your own false science and claim that what you are doing is empirical science, if you do, I'm gonna call you out for it.

    You have a right to your own beliefs, I never said I had a problem with that or with anyone else. I'm responding to this lecture and video that should never have been a part of TZM in the first place (especially with the title of the speech being "The Scientific Method" which it most certainly is not)....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgTIeDo1io When I posted my first thread I had all kinds of people attack me because I explained very logically how it most definitely is not real science (or the scientific method.)

    I very logically explained that science has proven that the brains of people who hold onto beliefs like this are lit up like a 5 O'clock alarm in the regions of the brain that illicit feelings of despair, helplessness and the desire to quit and give up on life which is a factual statement. I think I very rationally explained how through my own extensive (real world) experience of advocating for the NLRBE how I've seen all kinds of people come and go from our groups and how those who have quit on us have all been reflective of this scientific study.

    Real science is another word for truth, or the absolute closest approximation that we have ever come towards truth, which is what The Zeitgeist Movement is about, right? So I'll agree that science hasn't yet empirically proven that life after death is a reality but there is an enormous amount of overwhelming data that definitely supports this theory and simply refusing to examine the evidence and just resorting to name calling, needless to say is in no way in hell real science. So when I hear somebody give a lecture at something like Z Day under the name of The Zeitgeist Movement, without following the scientific method and try to call it "the scientific method" then I'm gonna step up to the plate and speak the truth that's within me and you can make bet on that. That's especially true when I devote so much of my time and passion into this.

    I'm also pointing out the very logically obvious to everyone with the message in the Bill Hicks quote (regarding life being eternal) that has been used in the Zeitgeist movies as well as quoted repeatedly by Peter Joseph himself, means that this is part of The Zeitgeist Movement, so I'm saying to all the cynics, especially the Ryan Johnson kid at Z Day, don't try to remove that aspect of TZM with your own false science and claim that what you are doing is empirical science, if you do, I'm gonna call you out for it.
    Last edited by Chris4629; 06-04-2015 at 07:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris4629 View Post
    You said in your post "Hmm ... that's interesting. I kind of see things the other way around. I would think that those who Don't believe in an afterlife would be more willing to fight for this Movement because they feel that it's the only Life they can experience.... No?"

    I would have to say definitely not. My question to you is how much involved are you with TZM? I have 2 groups in my area, both a meetup group that meets every Saturday as well as even have my own TV show where I advocate for towards a NLRBE. I put in at least 25-30 hours a week with this (in the real world) so what I'm saying here is based entirely upon extensive experience. How much time do you put into this and most importantly is there any group of people that you're a part of that advocates for the NLRBE? I think it's very fair to say that being on your computer on an internet forum like this is entirely different then actually being out there in the real world and trying to raise this awareness. So based upon extensive experience that I have, I know without any question that those people who choose to stay and become a really driving force behind what we're doing all have very strong resonation with continuation of consciousness after death (which is really a necessary component of spirituality.) Whereas those people who choose to bail out and quit on us are all staunch disbelievers of continuation of consciousness after death. I know this for a fact because this is a very common subject that comes up in our conversations and I can step back and watch the 2 types of people and see what they do.[/B]
    Woo Woo slow down there buddy. How did we go from talking about an Afterlife to comparing who does More for this Movement?? I wasn't Attacking anyone. My position on this topic was basically like Many others, that I'm not sure if there is an Afterlife because the Science hasn't proven it yet to Me. Just like you said here --> "So I'll agree that science hasn't yet empirically proven that life after death is a reality" That is my Main Point! Everything else I don't know what that's about.

    You can't get angry at people just because they don't believe what you believe. This is an Open Minded Movement. We should welcome all types of beliefs just as long as they don't pollute the central 'Train Of Thought'. It's Not imperative for supporters of TZM to believe in the Afterlife like you say. It's Crucial that they understand all the injustices/inequalities occurring around them in This Life and to feel the need for holistic change in society.

    Afterlife is a Fact/Reality to you so please don't try and force this on others. I agree a lot of people do believe in this but spending more time advocating for TZM Doesn't correlate to the Afterlife being Real? You're stating things too much like they are Absolute/Definitely/Certain Facts. It's Only what you've experience and background that leads you to believe this but everyone else has their own experiences to work with.

    If you can do Research on Afterlife or your Disbeliever/Quitting hypothesis then present that evidence. Otherwise there all just your Opinions/Views which is okay but Not okay when you try to present them as the Absolute Truth. So lets focus more on what we can do Now than what awaits us all later.
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    @Chris4629; OK, I'll try this one more time….

    When one states as you have, that according to your research …. "being a staunch disbeliever is a form of mental illness" …..it is blatantly offensive, combative and presents an adversarial position for those wishing to engage, besides lacking any credibility and/or 'clarity' of thought.

    When one simply 'demands' that "disbelievers check their cynicism and belief at the door and that YOU don't need their poison" (?)……well my friend…..then that's YOUR problem….to be intolerant and un-accepting of others opinions and challenges.

    Answer the question if possible; How do you explain my longevity (and that of many others) in THIS movement, based on YOUR above assumptions, which are offered w/ such certainty????

    May I offer the suggestion that there are more than 2 types of people in the world or this movement (this kind of belief is simply another example of ones/your limited life experience, go meet some more people )
    Last edited by droneBEE; 06-05-2015 at 05:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
    Woo Woo slow down there buddy. How did we go from talking about an Afterlife to comparing who does More for this Movement?? I wasn't Attacking anyone. My position on this topic was basically like Many others, that I'm not sure if there is an Afterlife because the Science hasn't proven it yet to Me. Just like you said here --> "So I'll agree that science hasn't yet empirically proven that life after death is a reality" That is my Main Point! Everything else I don't know what that's about.

    You can't get angry at people just because they don't believe what you believe. This is an Open Minded Movement. We should welcome all types of beliefs just as long as they don't pollute the central 'Train Of Thought'. It's Not imperative for supporters of TZM to believe in the Afterlife like you say. It's Crucial that they understand all the injustices/inequalities occurring around them in This Life and to feel the need for holistic change in society.

    Afterlife is a Fact/Reality to you so please don't try and force this on others. I agree a lot of people do believe in this but spending more time advocating for TZM Doesn't correlate to the Afterlife being Real? You're stating things too much like they are Absolute/Definitely/Certain Facts. It's Only what you've experience and background that leads you to believe this but everyone else has their own experiences to work with.

    If you can do Research on Afterlife or your Disbeliever/Quitting hypothesis then present that evidence. Otherwise there all just your Opinions/Views which is okay but Not okay when you try to present them as the Absolute Truth. So lets focus more on what we can do Now than what awaits us all later.
    I'm not getting angry at anyone because they don't believe what I believe, I never said that. I'm upset because of the ridiculous lecture that was given at Z Day along with the fact that when I posted my first thread while very logically explaining why this is not real science, I was attacked for it.

    The Ryan Johnson kid, who with titling his speech "The Scientific Method", completely violated the tenets of the scientific method by simply resorting to name calling without taking the effort to look at evidence. Like I said before, there is no way in hell that is real science and as the founder of The Zeitgeist Movement, Peter Joseph himself says, TZM simplified means applying the scientific method for social concern. I think everyone will agree that if we don't do that then we're all f*cking doomed. When I simply tried to explain the problems that I had with this completely bogus lecture with my original thread, I was immediately attacked by several different people as anyone can see for themselves....... Organizer here. I have an issue with a particular lecture at Z Day Berlin, 2015

    I don't care if someone else within TZM wants to disbelieve in the afterlife. If they want to keep their own beliefs about that to themselves then I will honor their right to do that and I will keep my own beliefs to myself. I only brought up what I did regarding very powerful evidence in favor of the afterlife because I think it's quite obvious that there has been an effort made within some people in TZM to try to discredit the afterlife without even applying the real scientific method in the first place.. So stop trying to put words in my mouth.

    However, I do care if some kid (at something as important as Z Day) gives a lecture under the facade of "The Scientific Method" while in a VERY unscientific way completely discredits very strong evidence that I HIGHLY doubt he's ever examined in a truly unbaised manner. Examining ALL evidence in an unbiased manner is the central core basis for the scientific method. Starting a presupposed position and then working your way backwards through cherry picked evidence is NOT the scientific method. If this type of sh*t is what passes for the scientific method then even if we ever get the chance to start this Resource Based/ Natural Law Economy, then we, within this movement will end up killing ourselves because it won't have anything to do with real truth. It will only be someone's f*cked up vision of what they think think truth is in relation to society and then work their way backwards through their own cherry picked evidence to support their hypothesis. Sound familiar? That sounds to me a whole lot like the Soviet Union was and if you guys are gonna resort to this type of bullsh*t, I'm going to call you out for it.
    Last edited by Chris4629; 06-05-2015 at 07:53 AM.

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