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Thread: Who would clean the toilets

  1. #1
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    Who would clean the toilets

    I have been educating myself as much as I can about what the movement advocates and I am really enjoying it and trying to sharpen my skills to the point where I feel confident discussing these issues with anyone.

    It may seem silly but I was talking about an RBE with someone who had never heard of the idea and one of the questions she asked me was "who would clean the public toilets". It took me a few seconds to come up with an answer but I came back with something along the lines of human values are influenced by your environment and in an environment where everyone is an equal part of society and social stratification is greatly reduced the propensity to leave a dirty toilet for someone else to clean would be eroded. I also then claimed that it was possible to automate these sort of things to a higher degree, citing an example shown in "Machines will steal your job but that's ok" of some sort of coating that was used on metals to counter environmental erosion (I assume applicable to maintaining toilet cleanliness as not as much matter would stick to the bowel!)

    I assure you my question is not facetious in any way I am simply trying to perfect my counter arguments!

    I support TZM and it has changed my life for the better.
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    I think this a very good question Geoffrey. Who is going to perform the worst jobs that need doing in such an RBE focused society?

    When thinking about these types of questions, I like to take the worst case scenario first. This way if the worst case scenario isn’t that bad then the most likely scenarios can be quickly accepted.

    In the case of toilet cleaning, the worst case scenario would be what we largely have today: flushing toilets and urinals that need cleaned once a day etc. I think you’re quite right about people leaving dirty toilets/poo on seats/leaving the floor with a new coating of lemonade etc., and how these behaviours would be vastly reduced in such an RBE for the reasons you said (outwith the occasional drunken accident etc.).

    So, the assumption I'll be making is that cleaning must be done largely by hand, as it is today, and we all have to take turns, even the toddlers. Well, here’s our first issue. Who will take turns to clean the public toilets? I’ll assume that 16-64 year olds are quite capable and are expected to take turns. Of course not all of them will be able to due to disabilities etc., but let’s use that number as a rough guide. I’ll use Edinburgh as the example, as it’s where I happen to live. So, Edinburgh has 477,660 inhabitants, with 337,347 of those between the ages of 16 and 64.

    Total volunteers = 337,347

    There are 29 public toilets maintained by Edinburgh Council, but we would have to include all the other toilets found in restaurants, gyms, universities, supermarkets, pubs etc., as these would become the public responsibility as well. And how to work those out…?

    There are 15,735 registered enterprises in Edinburgh with 14,060 having total employees between 0-49. With only 1,670 having 50+ employees. The relevant legislation for how many toilets a work place must have is the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992, we’ll use this as a guide to make this argument simpler. This states that for mixed use there should be 3 toilets for 26-50 employees, which we’ll use for the 0-49 employee sized enterprise range. And use the 76-100 employee band requirement of 5 toilets for the 50+ employee sized enterprise range.

    This equates to 50,530 for employees - which I’ll assume customers can also use as I can’t think of a way of quickly calculating the number of toilets solely for customer use and I don’t see much need for splitting toilet use between customers and employees – they both want clean toilets.

    Total Public Toilets = 50,559

    Dividing volunteers by toilets gets 15%, which equates to about 1/7. Therefore Edinburgh inhabitants are expected to clean one public toilet once per week.

    Total Toilet Cleaning per Week per Inhabitant = 1

    This calculation, for me, seems a vast over estimation of the number of toilets needed. But even then, this worst case scenario, to me, doesn’t seem all that bad.

    For the likely scenario, we will have far fewer in ‘employment’ thus reducing the number of toilets needed there. More will be needed at public attractions, recreational facilities etc., but because of the multitude of people using them, toilets can be used much more efficiently especially when we lose the dichotomatic cycle of work-leisure that leads to higher peaks of usage as ‘everyone’ has lunch during the allotted break, and with finishing work at 5-ish, etc., which all lead to peak usage at certain times. Usage can be flattened out as people will vary considerably in how they arrange their day when they have the choice/freedom to do so – thus needing fewer toilets to fulfil the demand.

    Then add in the slippery surface technology you mentioned. Boom. Much easier cleaning. Then add in the standardization of toilet design which will allow for quite easy cleaning automation, especially with an all-tile (washroom style) surface that makes for a quick and easy jet wash cleaning technology. Toilet paper, hand washing soap, paper towels replacement etc., can all be easily automated with the right design.

    All in all, it seems to me that the most likely scenario means that only a tiny percentage of people will ever need to get involved with cleaning the toilets. And in the worst case scenario, cleaning a public toilet once per week is not horrendous or inconceivable. No matter how bad the scenario, if the mathematics/state of the situation is openly revealed to everyone, and no one has a ‘tested’ way to improve things, and the chores are split as equally as possible, then how can any reasonable person object. We’d have to get on with it. With natural encouragement to improve it.

    Just
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  3. #3
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    I agree, it's a good question. The short answer is that automated self-cleaning toilets are already a happening thing. The video below is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not trying to argue that all RBE automation problems are already being solved. I wish that was true, but it isn't. This is just proof of principle - crap jobs can be eliminated by automation.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffreyg123 View Post
    I have been educating myself as much as I can about what the movement advocates and I am really enjoying it and trying to sharpen my skills to the point where I feel confident discussing these issues with anyone.

    It may seem silly but I was talking about an RBE with someone who had never heard of the idea and one of the questions she asked me was "who would clean the public toilets". It took me a few seconds to come up with an answer but I came back with something along the lines of human values are influenced by your environment and in an environment where everyone is an equal part of society and social stratification is greatly reduced the propensity to leave a dirty toilet for someone else to clean would be eroded. I also then claimed that it was possible to automate these sort of things to a higher degree, citing an example shown in "Machines will steal your job but that's ok" of some sort of coating that was used on metals to counter environmental erosion (I assume applicable to maintaining toilet cleanliness as not as much matter would stick to the bowel!)

    I assure you my question is not facetious in any way I am simply trying to perfect my counter arguments!

    I support TZM and it has changed my life for the better.
    First thing is forget perfect and don't argue. Next would be the question itself.. Take it apart, it's more important than the answer. Go to the source the root of the asking. Who cleans the "public toilets" now, in this current Zeitgeist? Low pay, low skilled, person of a different color, doesn't speak the local language, not here legally, and so on. The conditions to survive for this person are extremely limited. Not much different from the era when there were domestic slaves to do that type of job, no?
    Then a redirect. Who is responsible for cleaning the toilet/s at the place where this person lives who asks this question? Do they do it, do they have a cleaning person as above, do they hire a service employing same as above.
    Back to the question which is not really about cleaning toilets at all.
    Get to the Root. Will there even be "public toilets" in a Resource Based Natural Law Gifting Economy? What is a toilet in this model. Might not even be called toilet. Much of what is thought of as waste in the current economy would be a resource to be recycled and accounted for in a RBE. Not a public toilet but a place to recycle resources into energy/food/water systems. Those systems are not wants in this system, they are needs, for everyone.
    Another redirect,
    It's all connected to the system. The resources will be collected and processed as effectively as can be achieved. There will be no waste, waste is food. Many processes can be automated, more processes will evolve. If a toilet needs to be cleaned, I will clean it myself if I can't find someone to help me, just as I might pick up something off the street today to be recycled.
    If this were a Spaceship,, and it is, I would be responsible, along with the rest of the passengers, for all the critical systems.. I would know everything i could about them and how they work. I may have been involved with the engineering of this Resource Recycle System,,(RRS?)
    It's all about the question, not the answer.
    Quantum-economics, is where we are at. Think about the economy as dead and alive at the same time. The moment to open the door is not determined. What we know/think when that time is determined will give us the single answer.
    Last edited by RhythmAnarchy; 01-06-2014 at 01:11 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Who would clean the toilets?

    42................nevermind
    Neil likes this.
    Everything Is Possible. Nothing Is True.
    (ψ = Σanψn)
    What do you know when the time is up and the door to the box is opened?
    It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.

  6. #6
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    technology .... either robots or some sort biomimicry design ..... one of the "selling" points of the rbe is automation to free up humans to pursue the tasks the like (unless of course you like cleaning toilets )
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    I'm also trying to read up on this movement before I feel that I can start disscussing the bigger questions but I must say that I am a bit disapointing at the answers to this kind of questions.

    I might not ask the best question and there might be many answers elsewhere that I have missed. But when trying to disscuss ideas like the once TZM propose one must be able to answer things like this in a good way. If people think that this question are missed and that TZM only is about the bigger Picture it will not go far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just
    So, the assumption I'll be making is that cleaning must be done largely by hand, as it is today, and we all have to take turns, even the toddlers. Well, hereís our first issue. Who will take turns to clean the public toilets? Iíll assume that 16-64 year olds are quite capable and are expected to take turns. Of course not all of them will be able to due to disabilities etc., but letís use that number as a rough guide. Iíll use Edinburgh as the example, as itís where I happen to live. So, Edinburgh has 477,660 inhabitants, with 337,347 of those between the ages of 16 and 64.

    Total volunteers = 337,347
    You are assuming that all of these will volunteer why is that? Perhaps only 10% will do so which would greatly change your result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just
    I think youíre quite right about people leaving dirty toilets/poo on seats/leaving the floor with a new coating of lemonade etc., and how these behaviours would be vastly reduced in such an RBE for the reasons you said (outwith the occasional drunken accident etc.).
    Could you explain more why you think people will behave like that. They are not owning the toilates now and will not be in an RBE. Perhaps it would be even worse are more people will have more time needing to spend doing other things than working. Gorups of kind that badley influence eachother will hardly go away. Perhaps more will spend time drinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by RhythmAnarchy
    Get to the Root. Will there even be "public toilets" in a Resource Based Natural Law Gifting Economy? What is a toilet in this model. Might not even be called toilet. Much of what is thought of as waste in the current economy would be a resource to be recycled and accounted for in a RBE. Not a public toilet but a place to recycle resources into energy/food/water systems. Those systems are not wants in this system, they are needs, for everyone.
    Another redirect,
    It's all connected to the system. The resources will be collected and processed as effectively as can be achieved. There will be no waste, waste is food. Many processes can be automated, more processes will evolve. If a toilet needs to be cleaned, I will clean it myself if I can't find someone to help me, just as I might pick up something off the street today to be recycled.
    If this were a Spaceship,, and it is, I would be responsible, along with the rest of the passengers, for all the critical systems.. I would know everything i could about them and how they work. I may have been involved with the engineering of this Resource Recycle System,,(RRS?)
    If giving this answer I doubt that they will listen much longer, it's to far away for most (I think). Why would people suddenly start to think in this way eventough it might be true in the future. People still throw stuff on the streets, they know its bad and that there is a trash can not that far away. Surley only a small part of the population will know how the super advances automated toilets work... If the toilet needs to be cleaned then someone else will probably do it, might just as well be what people will think. They don't even need to worry of someone doing it on a poor wage and working hours.



    I would perhaps answer that as this kind of jobs today is considered a "crappy job" no one want to do it. But if all types of work is equal in society than more might feel that they can do it, its okey to do it, especially if they also can do other stuff to that they think is more fun. I Clean toilets part time, I'm a author part time, I do websites part time etc... But there will alway be those who are just fine with doing jobs that others think are to dirty and they will be able to do so under better circumstances.

    Automatically thinking that everyone think cleaning toilets is a crappy job will probaly upset many that do it today.
    droneBEE likes this.

  8. #8
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    Who will clean the toilets? Those who realize its importance to do so, along with a society placing same importance into proper perspective.

    SEE; there's a thread around here detailing the STAR TREK economy many will find interesting and related to this subject.

  9. #9
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    Get to the Root. Will there even be "public toilets" in a Resource Based Natural Law Gifting Economy? What is a toilet in this model. Might not even be called toilet. Much of what is thought of as waste in the current economy would be a resource to be recycled and accounted for in a RBE. Not a public toilet but a place to recycle resources into energy/food/water systems. Those systems are not wants in this system, they are needs, for everyone.
    Another redirect,what
    It's all connected to the system. The resources will be collected and processed as effectively as can be achieved. There will be no waste, waste is food. Many processes can be automated, more processes will evolve. If a toilet needs to be cleaned, I will clean it myself if I can't find someone to help me, just as I might pick up something off the street today to be recycled.
    If this were a Spaceship,, and it is, I would be responsible, along with the rest of the passengers, for all the critical systems.. I would know everything i could about them and how they work. I may have been involved with the engineering of this Resource Recycle System,,(RRS?)
    If giving this answer I doubt that they will listen muccsh longer, it's to far away for most (I think). Why would people suddenly start to think in this way eventough it might be true in the future. People still throw stuff on the streets, they know its bad and that there is a trash can not that far away. Surley only a small part of the population will know how the super advances automated toilets work... If the toilet needs to be cleaned then someone else will probably do it, might just as well be what people will think. They don't even need to worry of someone doing it on a poor wage and working hours.
    Answer to what, the OP topic, who is they and how much on what timeline, do I have/need to expresses an answer to whatever question?

    I'm also trying to read up on this movement before I feel that I can start disscussing the bigger questions but I must say that I am a bit disapointing at the answers to this kind of questions.
    I don't believe this question "Who would clean the toilets" has been given much consideration. Maybe cuz, it'sa common question in the current Z.


    Toilet Cleaning Economics....0.01



    Toilets

    ToiletMore than 45% of water use in the average American home occurs in the bathroom, with nearly 27% being used by toilets. Fortunately, your household can significantly curb its toilet water usage by regularly checking for and fixing leaks, retrofitting older toilets, or installing a new toilet.
    High Efficiency Toilets (HETs)

    watersense toiletsWaterSense (think EnergyStar, only water), has made choosing a high quality toilet simple with its labeling system. To earn this label, toilets must meet rigorous criteria for performance and must use no more than 1.28 GPF. Only HETs that complete the third-party certification process can earn the WaterSense label.
    How much water toilets use per flush

    Toilet water use can vary significantly. Older toilets can use 3.5, 5, or even up to 7 gallons of water with every flush. Federal plumbing standards now specify that new toilets can only use up to 1.6 gallons per flush (GPF), and there are high efficiency toilets that use up to 1.28 GPF.

    Replacing an older model toilet with a new low-flow (1.6 GPF) or high efficiency toilet (1.28 GPF) can greatly affect your household's total water usage. If purchasing a new toilet is not possible, you can retrofit an older toilet.


    * American Water Works Association
    Not sure about the how much water your toilet uses per flush?

    Oftentimes, manufacturers stamp their toilet's water usage per flush on the inside of the tank or on the "neck" of the toilet bowl. If you cannot find your toilet's water use stamp, then determining its age is your key to its water use. Federal plumbing standards passed in 1992 required that toilets use no more than 1.6 GPF, so if your toilet was installed prior to 1992, then it likely uses 3.5-7 GPF.




    Toilet Paper Economics.... 0.02
    The Economics of Toilet Paper


    be
    What if toilets didn't need to be cleaned and nobody needed toilet paper, what then?

    The next distraction will begin momentarily, for training, everything is always recorded, please be civil and respectful while on hold.



    Welcome to the Lab.
    Last edited by RhythmAnarchy; 08-28-2014 at 09:30 PM.
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    Everything Is Possible. Nothing Is True.
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    What do you know when the time is up and the door to the box is opened?
    It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.

  10. #10
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    I don't think I understand the objection to TZM regarding cleaning toilets. TZM advocates for using technology - automation specifically - for cleaning toilets; that means no one cleans toilets, anymore. So what exactly is the objection, that nobody would have to clean toilets anymore? What the heck? Do they like to clean toilets? If someone likes cleaning toilets no one would stop them; nobody's advocating banning people from being able to clean toilets if the wish to do so.

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