Page 3 of 16 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 155
Like Tree155Likes

Thread: Who would clean the toilets

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    749
    Who would clean the toilets?

    Well after seeing all this wonderful Technology here its quite obvious now don't you think..

    Our Technological capabilities are very inspiring but our Socioeconomic priorities definitely are not there to facilitate them in a Monetary Economy. But in a NLRBE that all changes.
    droneBEE likes this.

  2. #22
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    37
    Total Toilet Cleaning per Week per Inhabitant = 1
    I like this line of thinking, If everyone was cleaning 1 public toilet a week, I guarantee that many people would be working part-time in the rest of the week on implementing auto-cleaning solutions and making it as easy as possible for users to clean them etc.
    droneBEE and RhythmAnarchy like this.

  3. #23
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2
    I've asked this question before, and people still don't get it. People are simply asking: "Who, in an all-volunteer society, will do the jobs which no-one wants to do?"

    If you believe in a RBE, you'd answer "I will." It's as simple as that.
    droneBEE, Necrod and fsir like this.

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, Virginia
    Posts
    1,171
    Quote Originally Posted by IceWendigo View Post
    I like this line of thinking, If everyone was cleaning 1 public toilet a week, I guarantee that many people would be working part-time in the rest of the week on implementing auto-cleaning solutions and making it as easy as possible for users to clean them etc.
    I don't, because that's not the kind of thing that Jacque Fresco is talking about for an RBE. That's more like a commune where everyone has to take turns doing each chore; it's something like what's portrayed in the movie Gandhi:


    Not that I'm criticizing it or anything - I'm simply saying these are 2 different things; one's an RBE where automation, robotics, and advancements in technology take care of manual labor and almost all other forms of work (and that's specifically what Jacque Fresco talks about) & the other's Gandhi-land. I'm interested in the idea that Jacque Fresco has rather than the one Gandhi has. If I were in a similar situation that Gandhi's wife was in I would say to Gandhi that I don't belong there and I'd leave it and come back to where I am right now if I could (in other words, I think I prefer capitalism over Gandhi-land). I - myself - have worked in the past in a restaurant where I did jobs like washing dishes, mopping the floor, and even cleaning toilets. If I were in a situation again where I needed to wash dishes, mop floors, and clean toilets again to make a living then I would.

    The more important thing that's a problem with this is that this suggests people with skills and knowledge such as doctors, dentists, engineers, programmers, mechanics, nurses, electricians, pilots, etc. also clean toilets. That's a waste of resources when we need the brain surgeons spending their time doing as much brain surgery as possible instead of menial jobs like cleaning toilets, a programmer writing & debugging code instead of washing dishes, a pilot flying planes instead of mopping floors, etc. Who's going to do the brain surgeries, programming & debugging, fly the planes, etc. if those who have the training, competence, skill, knowledge etc. to do those things are pulled away from doing those things to push a mop, rinse plates, or scrub toilets? Are the high school drop-outs going to be put in the cockpit, putting patients under the knife, or make software? Of course not; obviously that doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Neil; 02-14-2016 at 02:06 AM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, Virginia
    Posts
    1,171
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonTapping View Post
    I've asked this question before, and people still don't get it. People are simply asking: "Who, in an all-volunteer society, will do the jobs which no-one wants to do?"

    If you believe in a RBE, you'd answer "I will." It's as simple as that.
    Wait - you went from talking about an "all-volunteer society" to "a RBE"; you're switching between talking about 2 different types of things, here. An RBE is not an all-volunteer society of people who simply say "I will", and having no choice but to say "I will" is not voluntary. A voluntary society is one in which a person can say either "I will" or "I won't". Now, what if no one says "I will"? What then? What if people do say "I will" - but they don't? What then?

    You want to know what a voluntary society is? A society with free-market capitalism is a voluntary society. Capitalism depends on people either volunteering or being enslaved to do work.

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northwest Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,978
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Wait - you went from talking about an "all-volunteer society" to "a RBE"; you're switching between talking about 2 different types of things, here. An RBE is not an all-volunteer society of people who simply say "I will", and having no choice but to say "I will" is not voluntary. A voluntary society is one in which a person can say either "I will" or "I won't". Now, what if no one says "I will"? What then? What if people do say "I will" - but they don't? What then?

    You want to know what a voluntary society is? A society with free-market capitalism is a voluntary society. Capitalism depends on people either volunteering or being enslaved to do work.
    HuH?? That's a pretty bold assumption/opinion and I can't agree with it at all.......

    "Community depends on Volunteers"

    Many of us who volunteer don't treat our efforts as work....but as contributing to a better society...spreading LOVE...

    As adult members of this World, IF we are indeed behaving like adults, none of us would be waiting around for someone or some technological invention/advancement to cure the ills of society.

    Adults don't wait around.......Adults work (or volunteer) to clean up the messes encountered, even those not of their own making......

    Slaves wait, and hope, and pray, often expecting outside help...... to clean up messes, even those that are self created.

    Volunteers simply DO......

    Please explain why a society built upon volunteerism wouldn't work or HOW it examples or needs capitalism to be effective culturally...or how it takes anything away from the advancement toward an RBE?
    Last edited by droneBEE; 02-14-2016 at 07:00 AM.
    Ernest likes this.

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, Virginia
    Posts
    1,171
    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    HuH?? That's a pretty bold assumption/opinion and I can't agree with it at all.......
    I guess you're referring to my statement that capitalism depends on people either volunteering or being enslaved to do work? That's fine if you can't agree with it at all; now your next step to show why you don't agree with it is to provide me with a counterexample; show me a capitalist society that depends on neither people volunteering nor people being enslaved to do work. If you cannot do that, then you have no justification for not agreeing with my "assumption/opinion" (as you call it).

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    "Community depends on Volunteers"
    Not sure what this is - why is it in quotes? It's not something I've written. Maybe today community depends on volunteers, and maybe that will always be the case; I don't know & I'm not going to pretend that I know something that I in fact do not actually know. I don't have anything that tells me that one day community won't be dependent on volunteers, given that someday automation, robotics, and other forms of advancements might someday eliminate the community's dependency on volunteers.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Many of us who volunteer don't treat our efforts as work....but as contributing to a better society...spreading LOVE...
    That's all nice and wonderful and such, but it's not the individuals who fall in this category who are at the point of contention. The theme of my comments and discussion here entail those who do not volunteer for the purpose of "contributiong to a bettery society...spreading LOVE..." & are only interested in volunteering to work in order to get a paycheck or to get something in exchange for their self interests. They're not going to want to clean the latrine for free & if they don't have to clean the latrine, then they probably won't clean it. If a person is told that they have to take turns cleaning the latrine, even if they proceed to do the work, that's still neither volunteering nor what an "RBE" is all about.

    Do you have something against inventing and implementing technology that will clean the toilets, or do other forms of manual labor, menial tasks, etc? Do you want a law passed that bans machines from taking care of doing work for us? I ask because it almost seems as though you do want something like that & I'm curious to know; please tell me.

    You're either going to be for allowing people to make their own choices or you're not. If you're not for allowing people to make their own choices, you want to enslave people and coerce or force them to do things that they don't want to do. That's not me; that's not what I'm here for. I don't want to enslave anyone or force them to do something, or ban them from inventing things to make the world a better place. I'm opposed to coercion if it can be avoided. Coercion cannot be avoided in a capitalist system, and free-market capitalism has the least amount of coercion; if there is no scarcity (or as you put it, droneBEE - scarcity is an illusion), then society will be able to move away from capitalism and I don't see why it wouldn't do so.

    If you are for allowing people to make their own choices, then you'll have to accept the fact that some of them are going to make some choices that you're probably not going to like or won't be happy with - and while we're on that, why would you be unhappy with any choice anyone else makes if scarcity is an illusion as you claim, droneBEE? For example, society might choose to continue with an economic system based on capitalism rather than change to an economic system based on Gandhi-land, because to them capitalism is more appealling than Gandhi-land.

    The reason many are "politically" opposed to this societal system where people take turns to do the different tasks is not only because it's not the most economically efficient or productive approach, it's also because they recognize that society is made up of people who would not want to do certain chores or things and they don't want to force others to do so.

    There's going to be more resistance to transitioning if there's more coercion whether it's to transition or in general. I don't see any other way of transitioning than to minimize the amount of coercion, even if it's forcing employers to pay their employees a minimum wage or forcing the one percenters to pay 90% in taxes for their earnings. I'm a libertarian because that's the only solution I see for unlocking the door to a transition, not because I'm some adamant free-market capitalist. The average libertarian or free-market capitalist might not be confident that we could transition to an "RBE", but for a libertarian like me, this is not a prerequisite for them to be confident. An "RBE" isn't going to bother libertarians, because it doesn't do anything to them that they're opposed to, and free-market capitalists are going to do anything to an "RBE" because they're also for keeping coercion for economic purposes down to a minimum, and in an "RBE" there's simply no coercion going on at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    As adult members of this World, IF we are indeed behaving like adults, none of us would be waiting around for someone or some technological invention/advancement to cure the ills of society.
    Let's define or explain what's meant by "adult" here. When I see the word "adult", I think something rather simple like "18 years of age or older". Not everyone who is 18 years of age or older is necessarily mature, or responsible, or ethical, or moral, or honest, etc. There do exist many who are 18 years of age or older who aren't mature, responsible, ethical, moral, honest, etc.

    Anyways, I take it that you mean these things when you say "adult"; when you say things such as "if this" or "if that", you have to address all other possibilities - what if not this or not that? What then? All those other possibilities are not going to cease being possibilities or just go away by simply ignoring them; that's just immature wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Adults don't wait around.......Adults work (or volunteer) to clean up the messes encountered, even those not of their own making......
    Some people are going to say "in that case I'm not an 'adult' in that sense because I have no desire to be taken advantage of, like that."

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Slaves wait, and hope, and pray, often expecting outside help...... to clean up messes, even those that are self created.
    I think you're using the word "slave" in a completely different context and connotation from what I mean when I say slave, because there's a correlation discrepancy. You seem to be referring to people who are helpless, lazy, irresponsible, etc. as "slaves"; I'm referring to people who have little choice but to work for someone else in order to get food, shelter, etc. as "slaves." When a slave (the type I'm talking about) is coerced to do work for someone else, and they're told where they're allowed to go or live, or what they can or cannot have, or are told when to sleep or wake up by their "master", I think it's ok for them to fight and destroy their "master" if necessary in order to get away from them if they want to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Volunteers simply DO......
    That's not the problem; the problem is people being coerced to "DO."

    Quote Originally Posted by droneBEE View Post
    Please explain why a society built upon volunteerism wouldn't work or HOW it examples or needs capitalism to be effective culturally...or how it takes anything away from the advancement toward an RBE?
    Why would I want to do such a thing? I don't agree with that. I do think volunteerism would work; I do not think volunteerism takes anything away from the advancement toward an RBE.

    I think you got what I said backwards: capitalism is what is dependent on volunteerism, not the other way around (i.e., volunteerism is not dependent on capitalism).

    I also wasn't talking about anything from (only) a cultural perspective; my statement includes any type of perspective.
    Last edited by Neil; 02-14-2016 at 07:38 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northwest Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,978
    Oh the confusion caused by not being able to look one another in the eye..... HEY! I can agree or disagree with or w/out your permission or acceptance my friend...

    None of the 'volunteers' we've known over the last 40 plus years have ever offered their time or service for a paycheck........

    My definition of volunteerism is strikingly different than yours I'm afraid.....(as is Free Market, Slavery, cultural perspectives, Adult behavior, capitalism, socialism, GEONOMICS?..etc)

    droneBEE's definition of an Adult (thought I already stated this? ) regardless of AGE, an Adult is someone who doesn't WAIT, doesn't bitch, doesn't point fingers at individuals as much as 'systems' of inequality.... An Adult according to droneBEE is someone who 'sees' a job to do and gets busy doing it. Pretty simplistic, heh?

    Neil; Does your statement still include 'any' type of perspective? Has it been broadened at all?

    fini; uhmmmm....we're gonna have people cleaning the toilets for a very long time yet......well, maybe not at Neil's home...
    Last edited by droneBEE; 02-15-2016 at 07:55 AM.

  9. #29
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    east coast
    Posts
    406
    Not everyone participating in any economic model is going to have figured out their path in life. There will be those indifferent to or unsure of a "career" (activity) choice. Such citizens of a RBE that supported them, in the meantime, could simply look at a list of jobs with the highest vacancies of volunteers and contribute their energy in those places with their only motive being to secure their weekly supplies for their energy input and not necessarily be too concerned with what they are doing at that time.

    And remember, since there are no wages or competition for work in a RBE there need be no limits placed on the circulation of workers at any job. So you would be doing less of whatever job you've chosen to volunteer.
    droneBEE likes this.

  10. #30
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    37
    "I'm simply saying these are 2 different things; one's an RBE where automation, robotics, and advancements in technology take care of manual labor and almost all other forms of work"

    I (and possibly others) would like to live in a distant future wonderland where everything is automated, I would really love that, but until this wonderful society comes about, nonetheless want a system that can be applied even if some tasks are not yet automated and that has a Plan B as a contingency for when something prevents some of the automation for a time. In addition, a system that is closer to RBE but functions differently from the monetary system, even if not everything is automated. One of the many problems with capitalism and money, even with an hypothetical so-called "free market", is that it creates ubiquitous conflicts of interests, if wage slaves do it for less they dont have the means to invest in automating the tasks theyre paid peanuts to do and if they could they might not want to because theyre relying on those peanuts to eat.

    Now for the tasks few want to do, there will be some people who volunteer, and if there isnt enough volunteers:
    A) others will have to chip in PART Time and
    B) everyone will know that there's a lack of volunteers so this job's automation will muster more focus and effort to get it automated, to make it easier to do self-service, prevent its need or make it easier to do.

    Brain surgeons and airplane pilots: These jobs will also be gradually automated and you have to consider that without the monetary system there is no longer a monetary barrier to education and training, and most important there will no longer be conflicts of intertests and corporatism and institutional barriers to limit the number of people that can do task X, instead of being in a conflict of interest to keep the value to the skill, people will want others to be skilled and do the job, help in making training material, etc, it will no longer be a status or a security safeguard or a social strata token for the privileged few. If we need more brain surgeons we will let people know, and education and training will be available until we have more than enough brain surgeons who will be eventually able to do something else part time when enough people get trained and the surgery is increasingly automated. Of course if there's insufficient Brain surgeons for what is needed, for a time, everyone will understand that until this situation is remedied, they will be doing more brain surgery and less toilet cleaning. And since the object is to reduce the work time, brain surgeons will eventually be able to work part time, if a brain surgeon works 4 days a week with 8 weeks of vacation per year, he might squeeze in the time to wash one public toilet for 15 minutes in a year. Some of the rest of the people who work part time on toilet cleaning will be working part time in implementing solutions there will be an incentive to make the job obsolete (instead of a conflict of interest).
    YaseaP likes this.

Page 3 of 16 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
web statistics
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1