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Thread: science project proving TZM can work...

  1. #1
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    Talking science project proving TZM can work...

    as many chapters as possible should try and define the science behind becoming self-sufficient...

    by this i mean, if a local chapter has 4 members, these 4 people should physically attempt to become self-sufficient.

    by self-sufficient i mean, without the use of money, these 4 people should be able to supply and sustain the basic necessities for 4 (food, water, shelter, clothes, etc.)

    each chapter would document their successes and failures, and share their findings with the global tzm chapter

    as more and more chapters succeed in becoming self-sufficient, we will have what one could call a 'phenomenon'.

    surely, main stream media would not be able to ignore this, and the word woud be out the tzm is working

  2. #2
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    You are completely missing the point and clearly do not understand TZM's position on needed social change. First, many in the world live off the grid and are "self-sufficient", technically. These are usually wealthy people. Second, The idea of not "using money" within this system is idiotic as it simply can't work on the whole. That is why the system needs to be changed.

    Come back this forum after you actual research TZM: http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/orientation

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneReality View Post
    You are completely missing the point and clearly do not understand TZM's position on needed social change.
    Nothing of his post shows that he doesn't understand. He is just suggesting a path. No need to be so harsh about it.

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    science project proving TZM can work...
    That's ambiguous for me. Do you mean The Zeigeist Movement? It does exists and spreads information so I guess it works.

    as many chapters as possible should try and define the science behind becoming self-sufficient...
    I do not recommend using the word "should" because it has a commanding meaning. Try forming proposition rather than imperative. For example: I'd like to propose... Maybe we could... I have an idea... Would you consider... What do you think about...

    by this i mean, if a local chapter has 4 members, these 4 people should physically attempt to become self-sufficient.
    From Chapters Guide:

    Note on “official” versus “non-official”: While this structure is what we call our “official” platform for
    activism, it is not necessary to participate in activism in such a way. Some people don't have time,
    or may want to participate independently. Some may wish to create a group for other purposes
    (e.g. green movements, transition towns, building a city, access to socializing, etc.). These avenues
    are open to all, but are not what TZM Chapters are about. Please keep this in mind as you move
    forward. The current purpose of the Movement is awareness activism, education, and
    communication of the information in our materials aiming for a global, critical mass of supporters
    of a scientific value system.

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    i guess i am afraid that with all this 'communication / informal education' and no 'proof' to back it up, we will be spinning our wheels with a great idea for who knows how long...

    all i was suggesting, was that if there were one or more chapter(s) out there that could provide 'proof' that a(n) RBE can work (not just in theory), while documenting it's successes and failures (as is done in science), these efforts could lay seed for other RBE communities, and eventually convince the 'social masses' that there are other systems out there that work better than the current one...

    because unfortunately, in my experience talking with people about TZM, i get the feeling that without 'proof', people just won't buy into it; and there will be no peaceful path towards 'social change'

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    i guess i am afraid that with all this 'communication / informal education' and no 'proof' to back it up, we will be spinning our wheels with a great idea for who knows how long...
    I apologize for my prior tone. However, the proof exists in all the advancement and known protocol of efficiency out there. What you don't get is that regardless of the outcome, the path of an RBE is the only way to go via the train of thought. You don't understand this train of thought if you are asking for said "proof". Its the wrong perspective as you frame it. So I suggest you do more study on TZM.

  7. #7
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    For the technological feasibility I recently compiled this list for family. It's what is possible today to replace an entire food chain supply.

    plant
    grow
    transport
    cook
    serve

    Keep Moore's law in mind. 15 year ago mobile Internet didn't exist for example. The same speed of development can be expected here. Once 3D printers can print all components for making other 3D printers, including motors and electronics, there is no limit to spreading the technology.

    For a money-less society proof is more difficult: Open Source and Mondragon are modern examples but not completely RBE examples.

    There are still working gift economies today and as RBE is in fact a more technological advanced version of a gift economy it should work as (at least partial) proof.
    Last edited by YaseaP; 02-13-2013 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Adding more proof

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    that could provide 'proof' that a(n) RBE can work (not just in theory)
    RBE economic model requires humans to hold certain values and behave in a certain ways. What exactly do you want to prove?

    while documenting it's successes and failures (as is done in science)
    What is a success and what is a failure is arbitrary. Please provide a context.
    Last edited by Bartek_Bialy; 02-14-2013 at 05:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneReality View Post
    What you don't get is that regardless of the outcome, the path of an RBE is the only way to go via the train of thought. You don't understand this train of thought if you are asking for said "proof". Its the wrong perspective as you frame it. So I suggest you do more study on TZM.[/
    If you're saying what I think you're saying, you are a little naive don't you think?

    Private sector property owners / capitalists are not simply going to roll over and say "ok, have access to all my stuff and manage it as you will" they will fight to the death against this.

    However, if we could persuade them with scientific proof that we don't need their relatively small pieces of individual property to succeed, and render it "worthless" in terms of potential profit or personal gain, perhaps they would side with TZM and buy in to a(n) RBE.

    I suggest you do more study on 'real life'; and how to communicate to others in writing - without the offensive tone.

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    Garbage warrior gives one example of self sufficient communities.

    I've found that using real world examples tends to hold up for individuals genuinely interested in a RBE. The ones that are not usually already have an agenda in mind. For example I've found in my own discussions with certain libertarians that many that fervently opposing a RBE don't believe environmental destruction is occurring due to market functions and that new resources will always be available. They of course ignore large amounts of information such as resource wars, peak resource extraction, species extinction rates, etc. They also attribute a RBE to socialism tightly controlled by a minority forcing others into menial labor. They lump in technological advancements with monetary functions such as price to make it seem like technologies are perfect just the way they are. I can go on about denying poverty statistics, jobs for 7 billion people, ecological or economic collapse, planned/inbuilt obsolescence, infinite growth, etc.

    Unfortunately, there are many in denial about the current system and will use whatever they can to support it.

    There is enough disinformation and misinformation available to support any world view whether it be religious, economic, or otherwise.

    Real world examples are great for those open to the idea of a RBE but those that are not will attempt to distort it no matter what information is presented.

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